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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hoth View Post
    A revision control system seems overkill for a one-person project
    If I may I'd like to disagree with this. I find that even on my "one-person" projects, a good SVN or CVS setup goes a long way. Not only does it provide for a way to leave a project for months on end without losing the structure and logs, but it makes management of it simpler.

    I think any "serious" project needs to start with a revision control system.

    I hope we can continue this discussion without resorting to personal put-downs.
    my hacks are better than your hacks

  2. #42

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    Quote Originally Posted by alexkreuz View Post
    If I may I'd like to disagree with this. I find that even on my "one-person" projects, a good SVN or CVS setup goes a long way. Not only does it provide for a way to leave a project for months on end without losing the structure and logs, but it makes management of it simpler.

    I think any "serious" project needs to start with a revision control system.
    I was going to mention that. But I was already rather long-winded, and I don;t do solo-work.

    Quote Originally Posted by alexkreuz View Post
    my hacks are better than your hacks
    I'm sure they are.

    What is the attraction of some people for to the word "hack" (or hacker, or hacking)? I know back in the stone age, it was meant to denote optimizing code (but now it seems, like it means the opposite, almost).

    Accept the past. Live for the present. Look forward to the future.
    Robot Fusion
    "As our island of knowledge grows, so does the shore of our ignorance." John Wheeler
    "[A] scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy." Richard Feynman
    "[P]etabytes of [] data is not the same thing as understanding emergent mechanisms and structures." Jim Crutchfield

  3. #43
    Member Mercurial's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ygolo View Post
    I was going to mention that. But I was already rather long-winded, and I don;t do solo-work.



    I'm sure they are.

    What is the attraction of some people for to the word "hack" (or hacker, or hacking)? I know back in the stone age, it was meant to denote optimizing code (but now it seems, like it means the opposite, almost).
    The mainstream is under the impression that "hack" denotes a rogue programmer, and that "hacking" is anything that gets past a security program.

    Thanks, Hollywood. Meh.

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Naem View Post
    The mainstream is under the impression that "hack" denotes a rogue programmer, and that "hacking" is anything that gets past a security program.

  5. #45
    Junior Member Hoth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ygolo View Post
    Still, I think you are vastly underestimating "the artist-who-dabbles-in-code".
    I'm sure you can find a few in the world who can do a lot. And a lot more who can't. There's no point in discussing an undefined person.

    Also, don't under-estimate the power of aesthetics in logical situations, it does wonders for solving problems you haven't thought of. It is a means of problem avoidance.

    I love to make things more elegant, but not at all costs, and if I can't find an elegant way to add the functionality in a timely manner I'll go the less elegant route. Better hacky than not there at all.

    Have thousands of people work on something for free. Give it away for free, and see if does not have any sort of disruptive effect on a market where competitive products are expensive. Although Torvalds is well of, Gates is much better off.

    Torvalds doesn't own the product, so IBM's or Red Hat's bank account would be a better measure. And Microsoft is a bit absurd of an example for you to be using of the elegant way of doing things -- MS is infamous for its hacky approach and bugs, it's probably better used as an illustration of how what looks like a mess (see OOXML specs) can succeed in the market.

    Anyhow, linux being free of charge is irrelivant to the matter -- especially since businesses pay many hundreds of dollars for RHEL and SLED, and as Microsoft likes to point out the TCO for linux is higher since the techies cost more. Most of the time it's used instead of Windows or OS X because it's judged better for the purpose, not because of price. Windows has come pre-installed on my computers, thus free, but that never stops me from deleting it in favor of a more stable, robust and flexible OS.


    My point about unhealthy obsession with clean code is best illustrated as Theo De Raadt syndrome. Says Theo on why Linux sucks and OpenBSD rules: "It's terrible. Everyone is using it, and they don't realize how bad it is. And the Linux people will just stick with it and add to it rather than stepping back and saying, 'This is garbage and we should fix it.' [...] Linux has never been about quality. There are so many parts of the system that are just these cheap little hacks, and it happens to run."

    I'm sure Theo's kernel is prettier, but that doesn't make it better when it comes at the cost of the robustness of the product. Hence you see the market largely ignoring OpenBSD (since you have this notion that being $0 is linux's trick, keep in mind that OpenBSD is also free). I can respect Theo's approach, or at least I could if he weren't always a jerk about it, but no matter how much he talks about how linux is a heap of junk the plain and simple reality of the matter is that linux has proven itself in practice and held up to continued development, which is what really matters.

    In the same vein, from this article:
    "You know what I found? Right in the kernel, in the heart of the operating system, I found a developer's comment that said, 'Does this belong here?' What kind of confidence does that inspire? Right then I knew it was time to switch."

    Developer code comments are not the sanest way to judge a product.

    Quote Originally Posted by alexkreuz View Post
    If I may I'd like to disagree with this. I find that even on my "one-person" projects, a good SVN or CVS setup goes a long way. Not only does it provide for a way to leave a project for months on end without losing the structure and logs, but it makes management of it simpler.

    I think any "serious" project needs to start with a revision control system.
    I've looked into CVS and subversion and they don't seem to offer me much. I have my own release management scripts which serve my needs -- automating the creation and upload of a final release, parking a copy of the version in an archive where my comparison tools make use of the history in various automated ways, automatically updating my websites to reflect the new releases and so on.

    Maybe I'll give them another look sometime if I run into a problem with my system, but I judge my needs by what's working for me. Of course my situation is rather unique since I've spent my entire professional life working on what's essentially one project (outside of a few little one-offs on the side). My point is simply that there are unique circumstances out there.

  6. #46

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    I think, at this point, we are in agreement about elegance and timeliness.

    As far as Linux goes. It'd main competitors are the UNIX's not Windows, I was just using hyperbole when referring to Gates.

    There are many more stable configurations on UNIX, and some of the BSDs are gaining popularity as Linux did in its early years. IBM and HP state Linux being "open" as their main driving reason to adopt it. Linux has also gone through years of testing and evaluation in corporate environments that OpenBSD didn't. Since Linux became popular first, and supported by the likes of IBM, there needs to be quite an evaluation for any BSDs to be adopted for being "more elegant" (some peoples opinions) instead of fixing issues with Linux.

    Quite frankly, I would be happy if either Linux or OpenBSD came to replace the commercial UNIXes. Linux has a strong lead.

    Sometimes the personalities of top proponents can have as much effect on the popularity of ideas or products as much as the effectiveness of those ideas and products themselves. (I'm sure you know that product and price are just two of the p's in the marketing mix, Linux has OPenBSD beat in Place/Distribution, as well as Promotion).

    Torvalds seems to be (I haven't interacted with him or de Raadt) more soft-spoken and unassuming than de Raadt. That can go a long ways towards promotion of ideas in some circles.

    Accept the past. Live for the present. Look forward to the future.
    Robot Fusion
    "As our island of knowledge grows, so does the shore of our ignorance." John Wheeler
    "[A] scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy." Richard Feynman
    "[P]etabytes of [] data is not the same thing as understanding emergent mechanisms and structures." Jim Crutchfield

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hoth View Post
    I have my own release management scripts which serve my needs -- automating the creation and upload of a final release, parking a copy of the version in an archive where my comparison tools make use of the history in various automated ways, automatically updating my websites to reflect the new releases and so on.

    You're misunderstanding the point. You said that a revision control system is overkill for one person projects. However now you're telling me that you have your own custom method of keeping tracks of revisions, automation, archiving, diffing, etc. It makes no difference to me whether you're using VSS, CVS, SVN, or your own custom RCS. My point still stands.

  8. #48
    Junior Member Hoth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ygolo View Post
    Quite frankly, I would be happy if either Linux or OpenBSD came to replace the commercial UNIXes. Linux has a strong lead.
    Seems like the old UNIXes are as good as dead based on market share trends, they still exist only due to momentum and ancient installations. Solaris may have a future, but of course it's open source now, even if quite commercial.

    Torvalds seems to be (I haven't interacted with him or de Raadt) more soft-spoken and unassuming than de Raadt. That can go a long ways towards promotion of ideas in some circles.

    Linus has a reputation for being blunt and annoying a lot of people. Theo has a reputation for being outright intolerable. Throw in Ballmer's reputation for chair-throwing and there aren't many appealing personalities. Frankly I find it inspiring, as an antisocial jerk, that I know I still have a chance to go far.

    Interesting bit from an article on KDE 4:
    To complement these extensions, the KDE administration has elected to take measures forcing developers to focus on "the hard nuts to crack,": features and stability, rather than "the low hanging fruit," code maintenance and cleanup. Longtime KDE developer Adriaan de Groot explains, "In the fullness of time we can start worrying about the cleanliness of our code again; right now we just need to get a bunch of functionality into the code base."

  9. #49
    filling some space UnitOfPopulation's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hoth View Post
    Linus has a reputation for being blunt and annoying a lot of people.
    I have found some of Linus's comments amusing.

  10. #50
    Senior Member Moiety's Avatar
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    Thread revival. Fun test.

    I got DLTC

    You're a Doer.
    You are very quick at getting tasks done. You believe the outcome is the most important part of a task and the faster you can reach that outcome the better. After all, time is money.


    You like coding at a Low level.
    You're from the old school of programming and believe that you should have an intimate relationship with the computer. You don't mind juggling registers around and spending hours getting a 5% performance increase in an algorithm.


    You work best in a Team.
    A good group is better than the sum of it's parts. The only thing better than a genius programmer is a cohesive group of genius programmers.


    You are a Conservative programmer.
    The less code you write, the less chance there is of it containing a bug. You write short and to the point code that gets the job done efficiently.
    Pretty accurate.

    I'd say I'm only a T because I'm never 100% confident in my programming capabilities (although I tend to surprise myself). It can be a pain to share the workload because nothing sucks more than conflicting paradigms trying to solve the same problem.

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