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  1. #11
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anaximander View Post
    I see this as a well intentioned, well thought policy change, ON PAPER.

    As much as it would suck to see happen, I think the solution might be a straight ban on any non type related discussions.
    Like this one?
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  2. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by Totenkindly View Post
    Like this one?
    Yes. Arrest me like method man.

  3. #13
    Senior Member prplchknz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anaximander View Post
    Guess I'll have to modify my behavior.
    I don't think your a problem i don't agree with all of your ideas but i don't feel attacked by you. And if i do you explain and we're good. If other people do they can speak up. Its not the ideas in themselves that is a bother but the hostility behind it from some posters. I'm very reactive thats why i don't really participate in political threads. I've gotten banned for being reactive ive never learned how not to lead with my emotions so as a result i don't participate in certain threads.
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  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ingrid in grids View Post
    Basically we've noticed a significant cultural change here over the past few years. We've received a lot of feedback from the membership that they are unhappy with this cultural change, which we frankly can no longer ignore. We've tried to examine why this cultural change has occurred and what we can do to set the forum on a better course.

    We are taking a back-to-basics approach, and focusing on what the site's primary purpose... as a Personality forum. The source of most of the complaints, trolling, and division on the forums has been relating to topics quite unrelated to this (and a relating to a very narrow range of topics too).
    First, vote to leave the EU. Second, build the wall to keep us out. Third, deport illegals.
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  5. #15
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Free speech means anyone can go start their own forum with their own rules. If you go to someone else's forum, you have to follow their rules. Free speech means you can go start your own church. If you go to someone's church, you follow their guidelines. Free speech means you receive the consequences of your speech. It doesn't mean that you can say anything to anyone and get away with it.

    When a forum has been run for years with people conscientiously trying to create a particular kind of community, then guess what? If a bunch of new posters (n00bs) come along and say hateful, rude things to change the dynamic of the forum, they can be reprimanded or kicked out. That is reality. That is life. If you want absolute free speech without consequence, then go stand on a mountain and shout out all the crap you want to your heart's content.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

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  6. #16

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    My idea is superior. Do it if you want your forum to survive, @highlander.

    I realize it will suck in some ways. No more discussion of MST3K and crazy presidential candidates, but like I said, there's already other places to be found for such discussions, and when there aren't, it's not hard to start a new forum or facebook group to find people interested in such topics.

    Otherwise this forum will be reduced to a sad, homogenized echo chamber within another few years.
    Likes mystik_INFJ liked this post

  7. #17
    my floof is luxury Wind Up Rex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mystik_INFJ View Post
    I would start to ask you, what is it with the obsession of "safety" when it comes to online? Safety from what? Somebody saying something mean? It isn't your duty as moderators to protect feelings. Nobody can hurt your own feelings unless you let them. Because you are the only one in charge of your own feelings.
    The short answer to this question is stated upfront by Highlander at the beginning of the OP:

    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post

    To put things most basically here, this is a typology forum, with the aim of creating a place where members can discuss personality types and the psychology behind that. We want to have the type of community where members feel welcome to explore themselves and others... how typology works, where they fit in and how they and their types relate to others... a place where members can feel safe in opening up about themselves without opening themselves up to attack.
    If the forum is supposed to be dedicated first and foremost to its members' ability to explore what they feel and why they feel this way, then their belief that their sense of psychological security and well-being will be respected is a pretty necessary feature of the whole experience.

    Therefore, the biggest issue that you're running into is that the whole forum was setup to be a safe space by definition. As long as Highlander remains committed to the idea that this is a forum for self-exploration, then it's in his interest as the owner to maintain that.

    If the forum was one dedicated to unlimited, non-typology-related debate, then yeah, your points would have more merit. This space was created to be a controlled environment to support a particular kind of emotional exploration. If what you're looking for isn't to understand yourself better, then you're gonna be throwing yourself against the fences the whole time.

    My questions for you @mystik_INFJ are what made you decide to join this forum? What were you looking to learn? Given what you've learned about this forum so far, are those expectations in line with what you now know the forum provides?

    @highlander--I think a discussion of how "hostile interactions and on prejudiced language" are adjudicated would be helpful. How does your staff determine what defines these things? What factors do they take into consideration?

    A lot of criticism has been leveled at the staff because they are making these decisions without apparently bringing member input into these discussions. Instead staff is making assumptions about those members motivations/beliefs/intentions, then eliminating contributions made by the offending members in the name of safety, without involving those individuals until after an action has been taken.

    Why is this the case? It doesn't make sense to me that a member's perspective should only be brought in after staff has already taken action. If for no reason than it always makes the mods look like they're reacting to something that's already out of hand, or because someone's become too vocal to be ignored. I know this happens occasionally, but it doesn't seem to be a sufficiently regular part of the decision making process.

    My last question is then: if you guys are tightening the reins, will the mods be doing more to engage with members in a consistent and ongoing way as decisions are being made?

  8. #18
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mystik_INFJ View Post
    Actually, my biggest complaint about the quality of moderation isn't related to "response times". It's not related to that at all. It's related to the fact that moderation is done selectively and highly discretionary. Some posts get away with exactly the same kind of content that another user gets punished for. Why? Well, I guess subjectivity. Which does not mix well with the kind of objective morality that you are trying to implement in the rules. Take this as a criticism to the fact that if you go down the censorship or selective punishment, you basically live by the sword and die by the sword. I don't have a problem with you as a person, but I do have a problem with your way of looking at this. Which is why I am even bothering to white this long ass train of thought to you why what you are trying to do is in the end only cause more problems than it claims to solve. You gain the peace of mind of "special snowflakes" but you've killed meaningful debate which is often controversial. Do you think that is worth it?
    Since the moderation and disciplinary process is not public here and never will be, by necessity, and possibly because you are relatively new here, there are large gaps in your knowledge upon which you are forming perceptions. When you see things like that, it has a lot more to do with a posters overall pattern of behavior and how it's affecting the members of the forum. The moderation team acts on posts that are reported. This being said, not all reports that break the rules get reported. Most reports aren't actionable in and of themselves. What tends to happen however is that there an accumulation of objective evidence over time based on these reported posts. The moderation team acts on those overall patterns and particularly flagrant violations of the rules. Therefore, to form judgments on an individual post by post basis would be a severe error in judgment. Normally people who get infractions and get banned have been reported by many people many times over an extended period. If a person is getting warnings, or infractions or thread-bans, or temp-bans, and having posts moved to OTP (or combination thereof), they should take notice. It's not coming out of the blue. They should take it as a strong sign that they need to reconsider their behavior.

    As to spirited debate, I'm more of a fan of it than most. That being said, we have a set of rules here which have evolved to be where they are for very specific reasons over the past nine years. Once in a while, we make course corrections based on disruptive patterns that emerge. This time, we're not actually changing any rules at all - just more strictly enforcing them. I encourage you, as I encourage all members, to be sure to read them. They are at the tab on the top of the page that says "Rules".

    Quote Originally Posted by Ingrid in grids View Post
    FWIW, discussions that resulted in this change in approach did not involve you whatsoever. Rather, it was the culmination of a lot of feedback we had received from our membership over the course of the last year. These issues have very much preceded you.
    Yes, and that too.

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  9. #19

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    @Wind Up Rex @highlander @mystik_INFJ

    That's my point. It's a niche forum. Eliminate superfluous politics, entertainment, et al subforums and associated discussion unless any discussion of those topics ties to typology in some form--what is Trump's/Clinton's type? Perfectly fine. Why is Clinton lying about emails/why is Trump orange and bloated? Not acceptable. Feminism rocks/sucks? Not acceptable. What is Gloria Steinem's type? Acceptable. Certainly "spirited" debate about type would still take place. Spirited off-topic debates? Nope.

    I've no problem with it being a safe space for type discussions, but the problem is the mods seem to want the best of both worlds and straddle the fence between safe niche forum and anything goes, all topics are allowed, feelings may be potentially bruised smorgasbord. Still allowing discussions on non-type, potentially controversial topics while enforcing a safe policy that might be difficult to objectively enforce could be problematic. It is not always easy to determine hate speech, and sometimes majority opinion can blind people from discerning what is or isn't. So just remove it all. It will be much easier to ascertain what is what in the context of a typology only forum.

    My solution will also make the mods' jobs much easier.
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  10. #20
    likes this gromit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mystik_INFJ View Post
    What risk? Who is putting these people and to what risk? What is there so risky about typology? I'm an INFJ, you may be something else, what exactly is the risk? I really don't follow what you're saying. To me, it just looks like you want to hype a non-issue, in the hopes of it becoming a real issue so that the discussion can be safely derailed in your comfort zone. Next you're going to talk to me about how people have feelings. As if that should prevent us from having debates. Oi, look at it this way, what's more interesting? Watching someone coloring mandala crap or someone having a heated debate about something relevant to our daily lives? If you answered the mandala crap, then maybe you're not in the right place?
    Honestly neither of those. I have a lot of interesting and worthwhile exchanges on here that are quite pleasant!
    Speaking of pleasant, Im interested in this idea of a "comfort zone". Mine would probably awesome, with plush sofas and potato chips and a very nice wall-mounted TV. We would all sip beers and maybe there would be a massage chair

    When I talk about risk, I mean maybe sharing something they might be insecure about, or that they've been made fun of over in the past.
    Likes prplchknz, FutureInProgress liked this post

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