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  1. #401
    Lallygag Moderator Geoff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    That's how I felt o_O I might of been away around then though, I dunno.

    The thing I find most interesting is how irrelevant it is unless you were emotionally invested at the time. Also the subjective importance of certain people is really fascinating. This thread, while an obvious ploy, helped me understand the similarity between the two situations. Both are obvious over the top issues - yet both are like throwing oil on the fire... and for almost no reason. These are cut and dry situations. The sheer amount of rationalizations of personal opinion seems like you could copy and paste the entire thread into http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...ad-person.html but even then, people seem to just argue for the sake of arguing. Why? That's what I don't quite get. Personal friends, etc. That I understand, and the rationalization process... it's when it goes beyond that...

    The strangest thing of it all is that I tend to be very critical of mods when I disagree with something. Lots of old examples of that. And I'm drawing a complete blank on criticism this time.

    *shakes head*

    I'm disappointed actually. My Fi needs a workout.
    Perhaps people grieve, and something about the internet forum headspace means that they dont get past denial, or anger. Or at least, some people, anyway.

  2. #402
    Senior Member kuranes's Avatar
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    I can't remember a single post of his. Guess I was mostly away then.

    The name itself was distinctive and memorable, however; and I think I posted it once in a thread on onomatopoeia or evocative words; and defined it as "verb denoting the sound of pee going down a urinal." I remember someone posted a chuckle in response to that, but I don't remember if it was Madrigal or....perhaps Zergling himself.

    I never knew he was a Mod.
    "The people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them that they are being attacked and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism, and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country."
    Reichsfuhrer Herman Goering at the Nuremburg trials.

  3. #403
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geoff View Post
    Perhaps people grieve, and something about the internet forum headspace means that they dont get past denial, or anger. Or at least, some people, anyway.
    Hmmm... that does explain the majority of it. And the rest can be explained by normal forum dynamics (the constant championing of opinions/stances - such as "the mods are evil" ala original zergling).

    Actually, now that I think about it, that's a good explanation. They feed off each other - explains the dramatic outbursts. Even those that don't care somehow get involved. Lower constraints on everyone increases volatility. Fits perfectly, even down to the increased rhetoric that leads to more personal attacks. It really does turn into a battleground

  4. #404
    RETIRED CzeCze's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    It really does turn into a battleground
    Ha, you should check out the other thread.
    “If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.” ― Oscar Wilde

    "I'm outtie 5000" ― Romulux

    Johari/Nohari

  5. #405
    Senior Member Anja's Avatar
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    My favorite part? The projection. Hee.
    "No ray of sunshine is ever lost, but the green which it awakes into existence needs time to sprout, and it is not always granted to the sower to see the harvest. All work that is worth anything is done in faith." - Albert Schweitzer

  6. #406
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CzeCze View Post
    Ha, you should check out the other thread.
    I've been reading both... very entertaining, but more than anything else, fascinating.

    Been online with forums for a very very long time - before web was around - and this is the first time I kind of got a parallel look into how the behaviors combined into forums. And this time, I get to be distant, middle and (have certainly) been close... gives me a handle on my own emotions and behaviors. And it cuts across all types, all ages, both sexes, cultures... so universal, so consistent.

    Extremely fascinating.

  7. #407
    Senior Member Anja's Avatar
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    There've been some pretty good opportunities for people to talk about forum dynamics and I think it's been useful for some. Lot of insight to be gained. I know I've learned a few things.

    And I wonder at what point keeping them open stops being constructive.
    "No ray of sunshine is ever lost, but the green which it awakes into existence needs time to sprout, and it is not always granted to the sower to see the harvest. All work that is worth anything is done in faith." - Albert Schweitzer

  8. #408
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    Damn, the absence of Zergling aside, this thread wasn't split yet?

  9. #409
    veteran attention whore Jeffster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uberfuhrer View Post
    Damn, the absence of Zergling aside, this thread wasn't split yet?
    It will remain un-split forever as a tribute to the Zergmeister.
    Jeffster Illustrates the Artisan Temperament <---- click here

    "I like the sigs with quotes in them from other forum members." -- Oberon

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  10. #410
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geoff View Post
    Perhaps people grieve, and something about the internet forum headspace means that they dont get past denial, or anger. Or at least, some people, anyway.
    :rolli: Please.

    Quote Originally Posted by Geoff View Post
    Stirring up the old drama is the point. We had a mod who acted very badly, it's an easy way by bringing it up to insinuate that current madmins have a similar lack of credibility.
    B.S. That wasn't what I was doing at all. I read the thread and agreed with a lot of what was said - all the quoted stuff, and more, as a matter of fact.
    And I'm lazy, I like it when other people say what I'm thinking. It means I don't have to type so much.

    Some people are being rather silly. I don't have a problem with the mods. I DON'T HAVE A PROBLEM WITH THE MODS.
    I had questions and concerns about POLICY and the sort of behaviour that is tolerated and that is not. These concerns extend beyond this place. I made some observations that led me to think about forum dynamics in general. And whether they are healthy environments, and what the dangers are, and how they might be improved blah, blah, blah. It's what I do.
    I perceived inconsistencies. I wanted some clarification. I got some. Not enough, but still. I didn't even suggest specific changes, I don't think the world revolves around me and my opinions - far from it. I'm not asking for anyone to be reinstated.
    ( I don't know why I suppose that ppl will actually read what I am saying and not what their bruised egos think I mean.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Haight View Post
    Well I guess a lot of people thought you were leaving based on the statements I quoted above, - plus PMs, I'd imagine - and we all had it wrong. Or, maybe you just wanted to allude to that for some other purpose. Either way, I for one am glad that you're staying.
    I can't be held responsible for the conclusions other ppl make.
    I didn't say I was staying either. But thanks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Haight View Post
    Because you made false accusations (or, alluded to them as I'm sure you'd state) against the forum and the Madmin based on misinformation, half-truths, and complete exaggerations. So . . . this is my job.
    I did?
    News to me.
    Quote Originally Posted by Haight View Post
    So when I make a thread in order to inform, it's a "confessional"? Hilarious. No wonder you, "rub people the wrong way." It's pretty clear that you do it on purpose.
    Nope. Just a poor choice of words.


    Quote Originally Posted by CzeCze View Post
    I'll tell you Blue Monday and lurkers, a lot of the points you bring up have been brought up and discussed before in previous bannings. Please see The Great Uber Banning of 2007 (or 2008?). There was A LOT of discussion about forum policy, community standards, responsibility towards community members, etc. etc. etc.
    There may have been discussion, but was there any action?

    Quote Originally Posted by CzeCze View Post
    Because you're not them and you don't have the right to dictate how people are allowed to respond or feel about things. I am allowed to be offended by something, period. I don't need your permission or anyone else's permission to feel and think what I do.
    We are not in disagreement here. I didn't tell anyone how to feel. Just suggested a different course of (what I consider to be more mature) action. But we're all different. And depth of feeling is going to have an affect on reaction.
    Quote Originally Posted by CzeCze View Post
    Community rules and standards are in place so that seeming opposite reactions and preferred methods of handling 'offense' can co-exist.
    We wouldn't be having this discussion if that was the case. But I'm cool with being in the minority.

    Quote Originally Posted by CzeCze View Post
    Your personal experience is your own. It has no more importance than mine or the next person's. Please do not elevate your own personal selective experience and extrapolate the 'average' or 'base' experience that 'anyone' interacting with Jack would have.
    Evan, myself, Ivy, and other members HAVE had unpleasant and even 'abusive' run-ins with him. I know what I know. Do you know what I know?
    I neither take it personally, not was I speaking personally. I meant I've never seen him be abusive to anyone else. Harsh, sure - he's been less than polite to me at times - but abusive, no. I haven't read all 10K posts tho' so I don't dispute it's possible. That's why access to collated evidence would be a good thing. Without evidence I always give benefit of doubt. I don't trust 'authority figures' because of their status, seniority, title, or likability, = INTP.

    Quote Originally Posted by CzeCze View Post
    Are you seriously suggesting it was okay how he acted because he's an emotional drunk???
    Not ok, but yes, I make allowances for people. I forgive and forget. If someone is a raging belligerent drunk every night of the year, my patience wears thin. The odd, uncharacteristic rant - I can live with. I'm not gonna 'cast the first stone'.

    Quote Originally Posted by CzeCze View Post
    Please show me who did this. I'm serious.
    Someone actually admitted in the thread that that was their intention. I didn't make it up.

    Quote Originally Posted by CzeCze View Post
    If it makes you feel any better, I think both can be bannable offenses.
    Are ppl banned for back-biting nastiness? There is a lot of passive-aggressive or even aggressive-aggressive behaviour / trolling that is tolerated from 'established' members, that prolly wouldn't be from n00bs.

    Quote Originally Posted by CzeCze View Post
    do you honestly think there was a conspiracy afoot? I'm not being facetious, I just really want to know if you and other members think that other members 'set' Jack up or that the Madmin were in on it somehow.
    People keep reading 2+2=5. I can only speak for myself: if I believed that I would state it in unambiguous terms. I can hold several possible explanations in mind at once without believing any of them. Can't you?

    Quote Originally Posted by CzeCze View Post
    I respect your POV. Can you respect mine and other's who had different and equally valid experiences with him who disagree?
    I don't think I've shown your POV any disrespect. Your POV is the prevailing one, so if anyone is being intolerant, it isn't me.

    Quote Originally Posted by CzeCze View Post
    Personally, I don't disagree or agreee or even care to comment about Jack's integrity. I never bring up member's "integrity" or "essential qualities" (banned or not) because

    1) I don't know you IRL, I cannot say
    2) It doesn't matter

    You are banned because of specific BEHAVIOR and ACTIONS that are recorded in a specific moment of time.

    All I speak to are a member's own ACTIONS and WORDS and BEHAVIOR. That is the only thing I pass judgement on and the only thing the Mods are supposed to pass judgement on when it comes to bannings.
    Well, then, that is where we differ. For me, intention is all. And context + history is important. Everything else is just words.
    Although it's all just words at the end of the day. Kinda freaky if you think about it too much....

    Quote Originally Posted by CzeCze View Post
    In other words, NO. And I am no less of a compassionate or empathetic or caring or worthy person than you or others who favor reaching out to members who act out.

    If you and other members make the choice to reach out, I can respect that, but I'm not participating. It is not an obligation.

    If you want to discuss respect and duty in a community, don't forget your duty to respect me
    LOL. Excuse me? I didn't know I was so noble.
    If you perceive disrespect from me because we have a difference of opinion, there's not a lot I can do about that. I happen to think highly of your posts and have more than the 'obligatory' respect for your opinions. Which is why I'm replying with painstaking thoroughness.

    Quote Originally Posted by CzeCze View Post
    Why is Jack vulnerable?
    I wasn't talking about Jack at that point. He would shoot me on sight for suggesting such a thing.
    Am I the only person who routinely moves from thinking about the specifics of a situation to general principles? I must be, since people persist in trying to loop everything I say back to one incident.

    Quote Originally Posted by CzeCze View Post
    Your cry for dialogue has gotten mired down in a lot of extraneous drama because you waited so long to actually explain what you are doing.
    Cry? I waited so that I would know what I wanted to say, be measured and not venting. I like that about myself.

    Quote Originally Posted by CzeCze View Post
    Also, I don't think you've fully thought out what it is exactly that bothers you.
    That's always possible. Please enlighten me -we are perhaps the worst judges of our own motivations.

    Quote Originally Posted by CzeCze View Post
    What exactly do you mean by "that kind of vibe"? If you feel uncomfortable, does that necessarily mean that other people are doing something 'wrong' or 'bad'?
    The kind of vibe that throws people away when they make a mistake. An intolerant kind of vibe. The kind of vibe that sticks the knife in when people aren't around to defend themselves. That glories in another's downfall/humiliation. That kind of vibe.
    Is it 'wrong'? I don't know. That's too arbitrary. I don't like it, is all. And it would be wrong for me to tolerate something that I am fundamentally opposed to.

    Quote Originally Posted by CzeCze View Post
    I appreciate you putting yourself out there to have this discussion, so I hope you stick around (at least long enough to hash this all out! )
    Pleasure.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

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