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  1. #51
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    I don't see how ad-hominem attacks are ever appropriate, unless the target member's character or credentials are the subject of the thread. The closest examples are "what's my type" threads, or threads asking for career, relationship, or other personal advice. Is "Take a shower now and then, and quit acting like a dimwit" an ad-hominem attack, or a misguidedly blunt piece of genuine advice?
    I'll provide a real life example from a short bit ago. I was discussing something with my brother. A relative is about to have some surgery, which has been recommended by two different specialists. It was a heated discussion. My brother, who has done a lot of reading, is arguing that he shouldn't have the surgery. We're all concerned because he is living with this relative and influencing him with all of these comments. My brother, who does not even have a college degree let alone any medical background, feels strongly that it is the wrong course of action based on all of his reading. He has arrived at his own independent conclusions on the matter. As part of my argument, I questioned the data he had, where he got that information from and how he is reaching the conclusions he is reaching. It turns out some of his information is based articles and studies he has read (which may or not be appropriate to the situation at hand - again, he is not a doctor). Other data, he seemed to be making up. A central part of the discussion then is that he is pretending to be an expert on something that he is not an expert on. I suppose that is ad-hominem.

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  2. #52
    Theta Male Julius_Van_Der_Beak's Avatar
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    ^ I haven't paid too much attention to the mods here, but most of what I do know seems to suggest that they are more than capable of parsing the ambiguities of interactions. Which is enough to satisfy me, I suppose.

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  3. #53
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    Which moderators are actively involved in the rule reform?

  4. #54
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    All of them, including the grandmaster Haight himself.

  5. #55
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Then sarcasm should be safe

    Also, for the record, the tiers above ad hominem are things I think are typical for Fs to use. Arguing and rhetoric seems to be a pass time that mostly Ts here specialise in, as such - though Fs certainly do learn to join in and can join in - but addressing tone and presenting a heartfelt counter argument without 'logical evidence' is a cliche F thing to do. And tbh, addressing tone on an a TypeC forum is kind of...relevant, I feel, though it might warrant a thread split to address the topic from a more value-based perspective as well. So I do hope the rules will just apply to the first and second tier, for that reason.
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  6. #56
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    I'll provide a real life example from a short bit ago. I was discussing something with my brother. A relative is about to have some surgery, which has been recommended by two different specialists. It was a heated discussion. My brother, who has done a lot of reading, is arguing that he shouldn't have the surgery. We're all concerned because he is living with this relative and influencing him with all of these comments. My brother, who does not even have a college degree let alone any medical background, feels strongly that it is the wrong course of action based on all of his reading. He has arrived at his own independent conclusions on the matter. As part of my argument, I questioned the data he had, where he got that information from and how he is reaching the conclusions he is reaching. It turns out some of his information is based articles and studies he has read (which may or not be appropriate to the situation at hand - again, he is not a doctor). Other data, he seemed to be making up. A central part of the discussion then is that he is pretending to be an expert on something that he is not an expert on. I suppose that is ad-hominem.
    Perhaps in some strict sense, but here you are just questioning the credibility of his sources. If he sets himself up as one of those sources, his background is open for scrutiny as well. A true ad-hominem attack here would be if you criticised your brother for being overweight, or a spendthrift, or some other quality not pertinent to his claim of authority on the subject.
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  7. #57
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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  8. #58
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    Perhaps in some strict sense, but here you are just questioning the credibility of his sources. If he sets himself up as one of those sources, his background is open for scrutiny as well. A true ad-hominem attack here would be if you criticised your brother for being overweight, or a spendthrift, or some other quality not pertinent to his claim of authority on the subject.
    A good litmus test might be, "If another poster makes claims to expertise, it is appropriate to challenge that expertise. If that poster isn't claiming expertise, then challenging the poster's expertise is perhaps ad hominem." For instance, none of us, or very few of us, are experts in Jungian analysis, but we talk about Jung and his ideas all the time. Jung's typology (via Myers-Briggs) is the raison d'etre of the forum. It should be OK for novices to express opinions about Jung and his typology without having others say, "you don't know what you're talking about," without citing specific reasons for disagreement. Of course most of us aren't experts, but that isn't a reason to slam each other for not being experts. We need to be able to talk about these things (as novices, as dilettantes, as experts) without insulting each others' levels of knowledge.

    The appropriate response to others making "inaccurate" claims about whatever subject is to share your knowledge, not to berate them for their ignorance.
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.

  9. #59
    Nips away your dignity Fluffywolf's Avatar
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  10. #60
    Doesn't Read Your Posts Haight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bologna View Post
    All of them, including the grandmaster Haight himself.
    Just to clarify, he said "Actively involved." Not sure that would include me since all I have said is anti-bullying should be the theme (correct me if I am wrong). And people are going to find out how no one listens to me in the end. However, as I have said, listening to me would be bad for the forum. There would be four people left and I would be two of them.

    With that said, I will definitely enforce the new laws to the best of my ability!
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