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  1. #31
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    Abridged version:

    Typology Central aspires to be Personality Cafe.

    (Or as I like to call it: Everybody stop talking--Fi-doms dominate discussions with their feelings)

    There is a reason typology-based forums are the laughing stock of the web.

    Ugh.

  2. #32
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    now the mods are faced with the responsibility of determining intent
    Nope.

    Determining cause and effect.

    As an INTJ, I'm well aware that I can say things that I don't MEAN to be cruel, but can be heard as cruel by others. Now, this can go one of two ways: I either apologize for saying something hurtful, or I keep on saying hurtful things to the other person in an ongoing death spiral. It doesn't matter whether I intended the death spiral, but that's where the the moderation begins. We could quite easily have two people who do not intend to be mean to each other, stuck in a thread where they're quite obviously being mean to each other (from an outside perspective), and totally derail the main discussion of the thread. If the effect of what you are doing is derailing a thread, it doesn't matter what you intended.

    This is where the warnings come in. When a thread starts getting out of hand and generating a lot of reported posts, we'll come in and say, "stop doing that." Very likely, the warnings would be aimed at both participants who are sniping at each other. Only after the warnings are ignored would actual consequences come into play.
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.

  3. #33
    Theta Male Julius_Van_Der_Beak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EffEmDoubleyou View Post
    Most of this boils down to "don't be a dick". If you're not a dick, you don't have anything to worry about. Yes, it is subjective to a degree, and it's astonishing to me that anyone could think it could be any other way. Any kind of authority or governing is going to have subjectivity. The alternative is an unmoderated forum, which is probably the preferred solution of a number of members. I encourage these members to visit Somalia.
    I'm not opposed to moderation. I'm just concerned about overkill, that's all. A healthy balance is possible, and that is what I advocate for.

    In any event, some of those that cherish the right to be a dick are already making noises about leaving. So it's working.
    I might change my mind and stick around, actually.

    On the one hand, I don't like hurting people's feelings. On the other hand, I value having a space to not walk on eggshells. Recently I've been a little more aggressive and sarcastic than I probably should be. Perhaps I'm going a little too far now.


    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    Nope.

    Determining cause and effect.

    As an INTJ, I'm well aware that I can say things that I don't MEAN to be cruel, but can be heard as cruel by others. Now, this can go one of two ways: I either apologize for saying something hurtful, or I keep on saying hurtful things to the other person in an ongoing death spiral. It doesn't matter whether I intended the death spiral, but that's where the the moderation begins. We could quite easily have two people who do not intend to be mean to each other, stuck in a thread where they're quite obviously being mean to each other (from an outside perspective), and totally derail the main discussion of the thread.
    Yeah, but sometimes someone truly does intend that.

    If the effect of what you are doing is derailing a thread, it doesn't matter what you intended.
    This is where the warnings come in. When a thread starts getting out of hand and generating a lot of reported posts, we'll come in and say, "stop doing that." Very likely, the warnings would be aimed at both participants who are sniping at each other. Only after the warnings are ignored would actual consequences come into play.
    You had me spooked when you said 3 and 4, which wore mord ambiguous, would get warnings. I could see situations where people are policing every statement for potential negative vibes. I guess what I want to know is that the people making these calls understand that context matters (which is not to say that I"m always an angel).
    [Trump's] rhetoric is not an abuse of power. In the same way that it's also not against the law to do a backflip off of the roof of your house onto your concrete driveway. It's just mind-numbingly stupid and, to say the least, counterproductive. - Bush did 9-11


    This is not going to go the way you think....

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  4. #34
    Theta Male Julius_Van_Der_Beak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EffEmDoubleyou View Post
    Most of this boils down to "don't be a dick". If you're not a dick, you don't have anything to worry about. Yes, it is subjective to a degree, and it's astonishing to me that anyone could think it could be any other way. Any kind of authority or governing is going to have subjectivity. The alternative is an unmoderated forum, which is probably the preferred solution of a number of members. I encourage these members to visit Somalia.
    I'm not opposed to moderation. I'm just concerned about overkill, that's all. A healthy balance is possible, and that is what I advocate for.

    In any event, some of those that cherish the right to be a dick are already making noises about leaving. So it's working.
    I might change my mind and stick around, actually.

    On the one hand, I don't like hurting people's feelings. On the other hand, I value having a space to not walk on eggshells. Recently I've been a little more aggressive and sarcastic than I probably should be. Perhaps I'm going a little too far now.

    And it does bug me that many people only value blunt honesty when it's in the service of a cause they care about. So that's coloring a lot of my interactions recently, as well.


    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    Nope.

    Determining cause and effect.

    As an INTJ, I'm well aware that I can say things that I don't MEAN to be cruel, but can be heard as cruel by others. Now, this can go one of two ways: I either apologize for saying something hurtful, or I keep on saying hurtful things to the other person in an ongoing death spiral. It doesn't matter whether I intended the death spiral, but that's where the the moderation begins. We could quite easily have two people who do not intend to be mean to each other, stuck in a thread where they're quite obviously being mean to each other (from an outside perspective), and totally derail the main discussion of the thread.
    Yeah, but sometimes someone truly does intend that.

    If the effect of what you are doing is derailing a thread, it doesn't matter what you intended.
    This is where the warnings come in. When a thread starts getting out of hand and generating a lot of reported posts, we'll come in and say, "stop doing that." Very likely, the warnings would be aimed at both participants who are sniping at each other. Only after the warnings are ignored would actual consequences come into play.
    You had me spooked when you said 3 and 4, which wore mord ambiguous, would get warnings. I could see situations where people are policing every statement for potential negative vibes. I guess what I want to know is that the people making these calls understand that context matters (which is not to say that I"m always an angel).
    [Trump's] rhetoric is not an abuse of power. In the same way that it's also not against the law to do a backflip off of the roof of your house onto your concrete driveway. It's just mind-numbingly stupid and, to say the least, counterproductive. - Bush did 9-11


    This is not going to go the way you think....

    Visit my Johari:
    http://kevan.org/johari?name=Birddude78

  5. #35
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    I hope that if there's more ambiguity, it's offset in part by more granular punishments. We're not gonna have, say, three borderline insults leading to a six-month ban without in-betweens as we did before. Other options are on the table, such as 24-hour 'cool-off' bans (e.g. 'probations').

    Right now, that's encoded in TEMPFAQ by
    We will be making liberal use of the warning system to let people know when they're treading the line during a transitional period
    Moreover, I'm personally much less 'iffy' about ambiguous decisions when members weigh in on them (through e.g. reports) than when mods do.

    Quote Originally Posted by EffEmDoubleyou View Post
    The alternative is an unmoderated forum, which is probably the preferred solution of a number of members.
    Well, that or a predefined, finite checklist of words that cannot appear in posts

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    So, important announcers, you plan on removing judgment even further from the users? Members aren't determining properly how to interact, so determination should be taken from them? Members shouldn't be finding better ways to interact, they should be better corralled? This perhaps would be fine if the hostility were not a reaction. If the members had brought the hostility with them when they joined, a helping hand guiding their angry keyboards away from the send button would be important.

    Personally I'm hostile because you display only the leadership that arises from position. You hide yourselves away and if member concerns do exist, they aren't found reflected in your interactions. You leave disappointment and frustration festering in your wake. And then decide hostility is the fault of the user. This is the environment you manage, and I don't think I made it for you.
    Precisely. Multiple troublemakers are a "protected class" on this forum--violating every policy this site enacts. People respond to the hypocrisy with aggression...and rightly so. They play the world's smallest violin and these dullards hang on every tune.

    And rather than growing a pair and dealing with it objectively, they roll out this passive-aggressive, chickenshit "new policy" garbage that will, no doubt, conveniently neglect to include said troublemakers. If somebody can't do their job, they don't fuckin' need to be doing it. The goddamn Bush administration would be proud.

    Smells like weakness to me. Smells like bullshit.

  7. #37
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    Kalach and I would like to take sightseeing tour through the mod box. All in favor? Great.

  8. #38
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    I have an idea: maybe we can wait and see what kind of behaviour is actually getting warnings before saying that the new system is "overkill"?

    This is a change, and any change will generate complaints. The old system generated plenty of complaints, too. We listened to those complaints, and are trying to address them now. So we're trying out this system to see if it will be an improvement on the old one, in terms of improving forum dynamics. We're not going to abort the process now without giving it a try, so let's wait and see how it functions in reality before making dramatic comments about how terrible our (predicted) new reign of terror will be, yes?
    -end of thread-

  9. #39

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    I dont blame the mods for the problems on the forum.

  10. #40

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    Ah, the old wait-and-see gambit that has worked so well in the past. Can we bring burning brands on the modbox tour? I have a pitch fork.
    I'm becoming more inclined to the wait and see position by the day, the only problem is that if people cant see its likely to be a cluster fuck when they start advocating a particular change are they going to be likely to see if for a cluster fuck when it plays out that way?

    Pol Pot said the only problem with his revolution is it never went far enough, every single libertarian I've ever given any time to has more or less suggested the same thing, whaver market failures exist are only evidence we're not relying on markets enough, every single other single issue idea is much the same in practice.

    I'm predicting that once the safe spacing fucks up the conclusion is going to be that there's not enough safety and to ramp it up even more, I'm predicting that no one is ever going to take a "get a grip" approach to anyone.

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