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  1. #21
    Theta Male Julius_Van_Der_Beak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saudade View Post
    Don't be so hasty.
    I'm usually right about these kinds of things, even if I'd prefer to be wrong.
    [Trump's] rhetoric is not an abuse of power. In the same way that it's also not against the law to do a backflip off of the roof of your house onto your concrete driveway. It's just mind-numbingly stupid and, to say the least, counterproductive. - Bush did 9-11


    This is not going to go the way you think....

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  2. #22
    ndovjtjcaqidthi
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    Quote Originally Posted by msg_v2 View Post
    I'm usually right about these kinds of things, even if I'd prefer to be wrong.
    Well yeah, but things don't seem so bad right now.. Just wait and see. Lol.

  3. #23
    Theta Male Julius_Van_Der_Beak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    So the rise in hostility came from members behaving badly, and the solution is a more exacting curtailment of expression?

    Awesome.
    Of course. Doing something about members would be mean and might hurt someone's feelings.
    [Trump's] rhetoric is not an abuse of power. In the same way that it's also not against the law to do a backflip off of the roof of your house onto your concrete driveway. It's just mind-numbingly stupid and, to say the least, counterproductive. - Bush did 9-11


    This is not going to go the way you think....

    Visit my Johari:
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  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    For several years, members have asked for... something. They call it transparency. Management has paid occasional lip service to creating the... something. But over time, little has changed. Indeed, moderator visibility itself has declined. Then, bam!
    using advance forensic techniques, i was able to reconstruct a proximate image of what their internal dialogues core content might look like:

    "we can't just keep letting this sort of thing happen!"
    "i agree, we have to do something to stop it"
    "right, so let's do it!"
    "yep, we should do.. what was the thing we're doing?"
    "it! the thing we just decided to do.."
    "oh, right, it... yes ofcourse, we'll just do it. well, i'm totally with you on it"
    "exactly. we're doing it... so go ahead and start, i'll just follow your lead".
    "right, so, hmm.. first step! to tell everybody to calm down, we'll be doing it soon enough".
    "see? we'll solve the problem in no time!"


    Quote Originally Posted by msg_v2 View Post
    Meh, I'll find some other forum, then. I don't know if it's a personal interpretation or not, but that kind of thing is exactly what I was afraid of.

    I think it would be more productive to start with the members who are causing the trouble, but apparently no one wants to do that in these instances, although I'm sure they would in other instances.

    It's not hard for me to see at all here how blunt honesty would be prohibited.
    i have a bad feeling of this too, but i think a lot if it stems from a very confusing set of mixed messages.


    on the surface, this:
    Example #1: "You are an idiot."

    Example #2: "Only an idiot would say something like that."

    Example #3: "Everything you say is so idiotic."

    Example #4: "I think you might need professional help."
    sounds relatively fine - it's how the censorship can effect the top 3 here that i am worried about:


    personally i don't give a shit about the bottom two, and could do well to live without them....

    if anything, i can see a value in it:
    in many "NT-like" forums (non typology forums regarding stereotypically "NT-geeky" matters), someone being called out on using an ad hominem without any redeeming substance or counter argument left in their pocket is going to be ill accepted as a demonstration of blind belief in the face of reasonable counter arguments.
    here on the other hand, you actually have large segments who not only accept ad hominems as a viable method of determining the validity of information both externally & internally, but will outright resent the implication that there's anything wrong with that, ironically treating it as condescending ("you claim your method of determining the validity of information is better than mine! how dare you!").

    sarcasm aside, there's a reason for this difference though - which i don't believe has anything to do with type, but circumstances:
    the first type of communities evolve in situations of observable implications - the assessment has to predict something correctly, the design has to work, the strategy has to reach it's goal. if your idea isn't applicable to reality, your fucking yourself and anyone or any organization who stood along side your idea over. when you know you are going to face a demonstration on whether you are wrong, you are going to be driven away from methods that are very likely to stray you towards wrong conclusions.
    ...it's sort of like a natural selection format for thought patterns, so its an organic aspect of culture. here, the only selection process you have is the popularity of an idea, and under popularity rules telling someone they are wrong because their popo heads is the mature way of reaching conclusions and establishing limited (closed circuit) conesus.

    now, i realize the reason they want to change this has nothing to do with it being a fallacy but rather because it hurts people's feelings, but just because it's designed to protect [insert NF stereotype] by limiting the means of delivery doesn't mean the symptom can't benefit [insert NT stereotype] by increasing the importance and basic requirement of content.

    so.. so far so good, except then you have stuff like this:
    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    I think there has to be that much leeway or else we have what we have had in the past - people baiting, or using indirect insults so that they're following the letter of the law, but not the spirit of it.
    +
    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    Fidelia is correct
    there's a reason that baiting is such an effective strategy - it is indistinguishable from expressing a disagreement with someone's core values or most sensitive assertions, and it aims to do so in an environment where people have disagreements with each other's core values and sensitive assertions. on the flip side, you can't target something camouflage without targeting what they are camouflaging as. in this case the resulting process is:

    someone claims they where baited, and you are left to determine:
    • the suspected "baited" is rationalizing their own attack about someone's opinion as a defensive reaction by vilifying the intent, either a direct attack (if they report after "getting baited") or indirectly (attempting to use the mods to censor counter arguments to their own).
    • the suspected "baiter" was in fact bringing up a contrarian point of view for the sole purpose of pressing someone's buttons for the end means of breaking them into direct attack (and thus again attempting to use the mods to censor counter arguments to their own).

    now the mods are faced with the responsibility of determining intent, which is fertile ground for one thing only - the expressions of predisposed biases, whether it's who they like more, who they feel more protective towards or simply who they identify with more, it's going to be the determining factor simply because they force themselves into a situation where they need to determine something without having any substantial determining factor. no matter how competent the mod is, they are still human (except for @highlander who is an outcast immortal alien sentenced to earth and reincarnated in scotland - if this is happening after the one where he ends up getting telepathy, we're totally out of trouble).

  5. #25
    Theta Male Julius_Van_Der_Beak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post

    now the mods are faced with the responsibility of determining intent, which is fertile ground for one thing only - the expressions of predisposed biases, whether it's who they like more, who they feel more protective towards or simply who they identify with more, it's going to be the determining factor simply because they force themselves into a situation where they need to determine something without having any substantial determining factor.
    no matter how competent the mod is, they are still human (except for @highlander who is an outcast immortal alien sentenced to earth and reincarnated in scotland - if this is happening after the one where he ends up getting telepathy, we're totally out of trouble).

    I felt it necessary to emphasis this point, as it is one of my primary concerns. It is why I prefer actions to be taking against members who have a pattern of acting in a way that is unacceptable, rather then having that standard selectively enforced across the board.
    [Trump's] rhetoric is not an abuse of power. In the same way that it's also not against the law to do a backflip off of the roof of your house onto your concrete driveway. It's just mind-numbingly stupid and, to say the least, counterproductive. - Bush did 9-11


    This is not going to go the way you think....

    Visit my Johari:
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  6. #26
    Senior Member prplchknz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    Example #4: "I think you might need professional help."
    Now it really gets fuzzy. This might be a totally honest statement, expressing concern and sympathy for the other person. In the best light, it is a bit condescending, but not the kind of thing that would start a flame war. However, in the worst light, it is an attempt to disparage the person, to insinuate that all of that person's arguments are not worth consideration. In the worst light, it really is ad hominem, not concerned with having a discussion.
    if someone is expressing valid concern about someone's mental health, why.would they bring it up in public? wouldn't it be more sincere to say something in private? I just.don't see how im a heated discussion that could ever be fair. if someone else can please explain

  7. #27
    Senior Member prplchknz's Avatar
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    do what I do, make snarky ass comments in your head. you can't get in trouble for that

  8. #28
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    now the mods are faced with the responsibility of determining intent, which is fertile ground for one thing only - the expressions of predisposed biases, whether it's who they like more, who they feel more protective towards or simply who they identify with more, it's going to be the determining factor simply because they force themselves into a situation where they need to determine something without having any substantial determining factor. no matter how competent the mod is, they are still human (except for @highlander who is an outcast immortal alien sentenced to earth and reincarnated in scotland - if this is happening after the one where he ends up getting telepathy, we're totally out of trouble).
    I have often wished I had that telepathy. Psion by Joan Vinge is one of my favorite books.

    I'm speaking for myself and not the rest of the admins or mods. I agree with you that intent is extremely difficult to ascertain and the risk of bias as you describe it is a real issue on those cases. It's one of the problems with the current rules relating to Trolling in the FAQ. Behavior that is actually observed is the easiest and most effective thing to mod.

    I like that pyramid. The second level - ad hominem attacks is a problem here. In theory, there are situations where this should be fine. In practice, ad hominem attacks tend to be rather uncivil. I think there are situations where the method would be fine - say, "you have x experience and that's why you think this way; you have this particular bias". That would be different than "why should i listen to you when you're a misogynist with a slim grip on mental sanity." One is bullying/insulting while the other is not.

    Please provide feedback on my Nohari and Johari Window by clicking here: Nohari/Johari

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  9. #29
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post

    I like that pyramid. The second level - ad hominem attacks is a problem here. In theory, there are situations where this should be fine. In practice, ad hominem attacks tend to be rather uncivil. I think there are situations where the method would be fine - say, "you have x experience and that's why you think this way; you have this particular bias". That would be different than "why should i listen to you when you're a misogynist with a slim grip on mental sanity." One is bullying/insulting while the other is not.


    Loved the pyramid, Mane. It helps clarify things. Definitely can see how the second tier is the one that has been a problem around here lately.
    ★ڿڰۣ✿ℒoѵℯ✿ڿڰۣ★





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  10. #30

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    Most of this boils down to "don't be a dick". If you're not a dick, you don't have anything to worry about. Yes, it is subjective to a degree, and it's astonishing to me that anyone could think it could be any other way. Any kind of authority or governing is going to have subjectivity. The alternative is an unmoderated forum, which is probably the preferred solution of a number of members. I encourage these members to visit Somalia. It seems like a really cool place to live.

    In any event, some of those that cherish the right to be a dick are already making noises about leaving. So it's working.
    Everybody have fun tonight. Everybody Wang Chung tonight.

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