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  1. #201
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    Quote Originally Posted by prplchknz View Post
    so I'm getting banned?
    I was speaking in the general sense, not about you specifically. We wouldn't disclose that information in this thread anyway.

  2. #202
    Senior Member prplchknz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bologna View Post
    I was speaking in the general sense, not about you specifically. We wouldn't disclose that information in this thread anyway.
    o ok.

  3. #203
    nee andante bechimo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bologna View Post
    Under the old ruleset, we would consider 'fuckface' to be problematic; but the potential antagonism and provocation that may have led to that point would not be. We now look at provocation as a potential issue to be dealt with.

    That said, however, we don't accept "but he hit me first" as a legit argument. We expect people to exercise an appropriate amount of self-control and to allow us to also deal with the person who hit first.
    How would moderators gauge intent, where was it provocation or disagreement between polar opposite personalities and beliefs? Where does the moderation team draw the line between oversensitivity/reactionary personality types and legitimate claims of attempted bullying? How and where do you draw the line between ham-fisted teasing and insults? The direction of the thread won't necessarily be indicative of which, only that the thread went off-topic.

  4. #204
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by andante View Post
    How would moderators gauge intent, where was it provocation or disagreement between polar opposite personalities and beliefs? Where does the moderation team draw the line between oversensitivity/reactionary personality types and legitimate claims of attempted bullying? How and where do you draw the line between ham-fisted teasing and insults? The direction of the thread won't necessarily be indicative of which, only that the thread went off-topic.
    Let us assume two members having it out with each other, and let us assume for argument's sake that neither member intends to insult or otherwise poke at various sensitivities to hurt or just to provoke reactions.

    It doesn't matter what their intentions are. If people are reacting, and those reactions are provoking reactions, and so on, and so on ... it's blowing up in spite of intentions, not because of intentions. In general, we'd ask those two members to ignore each other and stop the conversation. Possibly lock the thread. Mod actions would escalate only if any members decided to ignore warnings and to continue stirring the pot.

    As a general principle, we're trying to protect the forum from the ongoing spewing of venom that these kinds of threads generate. We don't care who started it, we just don't want those kinds of threads on our forum.
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.

  5. #205
    nee andante bechimo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    Let us assume two members having it out with each other, and let us assume for argument's sake that neither member intends to insult or otherwise poke at various sensitivities to hurt or just to provoke reactions.

    It doesn't matter what their intentions are. If people are reacting, and those reactions are provoking reactions, and so on, and so on ... it's blowing up in spite of intentions, not because of intentions. In general, we'd ask those two members to ignore each other and stop the conversation. Possibly lock the thread. Mod actions would escalate only if any members decided to ignore warnings and to continue stirring the pot.

    As a general principle, we're trying to protect the forum from the ongoing spewing of venom that these kinds of threads generate. We don't care who started it, we just don't want those kinds of threads on our forum.
    So, if the thread remains on-topic, what then?

  6. #206
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by andante View Post
    So, if the thread remains on-topic, what then?
    Sometimes, the topic is too poisonous to allow, even in fun, e.g., a thread titled, "Who is the stupidest member on the forum?" Some people might take it in stride and just josh and rib each other, but others would take it fairly literally and air their grievances for all to see. It would be "on topic" but it wouldn't be the kind of spewing that we'd want to allow on the forum.
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.

  7. #207
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    You are right though - in the end there is a dependence on trusting the collective decision making and authority of that group of individuals. It's sort of hard to get around that.
    Perhaps I am naive in this respect, but I actually prefer to trust the judgment of the mods, especially given that they are a diverse group, holding each other accountable, than a written policy that cannot possibly account for every situation that comes up. Just as in the courtroom, we expect the judge actually to make judgments, not simply read the outcome from the statute. We see the problems resulting from mandatory sentencing in the legal system. While the consequences of such hamstringing here are far less dire, the benefits are no greater.

    Quote Originally Posted by prplchknz View Post
    sometimes things happen,and sometimes people deserve to be called fuckfaces, since we're not allowed to those people will get off and forever be ignorant of being fuckfaces. It's not right.
    Calling someone a fuckface and letting them off the hook are not the only alternatives. One can instead simply explain what your objection is (i.e. why you consider them a fuckface to begin with), focusing on the facts of the matter and your own feelings, without insult or hyperbole.

    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    Let us assume two members having it out with each other, and let us assume for argument's sake that neither member intends to insult or otherwise poke at various sensitivities to hurt or just to provoke reactions.

    It doesn't matter what their intentions are. If people are reacting, and those reactions are provoking reactions, and so on, and so on ... it's blowing up in spite of intentions, not because of intentions. In general, we'd ask those two members to ignore each other and stop the conversation. Possibly lock the thread. Mod actions would escalate only if any members decided to ignore warnings and to continue stirring the pot.
    There have been a couple of people at work with whom I sometimes have very vigorous debates about how to accomplish something. We are always respectful toward each other, never use insulting language, and stay focused on the facts. At the end, whichever perspective "wins", we have a very thorough idea of the pros, cons, and likely pitfalls, so it is actually productive, and this style of discussion is just in our nature. We have had the occasional coworker, though, who has been quite put out by these interactions, just observing from the sidelines. (One misunderstood for months that my arguing partner and I were quite good friends!) Is this kind discussion something that will now be off-limits, due to the negative reaction of onlookers, assuming it stays on-topic?
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  8. #208
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    There have been a couple of people at work with whom I sometimes have very vigorous debates about how to accomplish something. We are always respectful toward each other, never use insulting language, and stay focused on the facts. At the end, whichever perspective "wins", we have a very thorough idea of the pros, cons, and likely pitfalls, so it is actually productive, and this style of discussion is just in our nature. We have had the occasional coworker, though, who has been quite put out by these interactions, just observing from the sidelines. (One misunderstood for months that my arguing partner and I were quite good friends!) Is this kind discussion something that will now be off-limits, due to the negative reaction of onlookers, assuming it stays on-topic?)
    Absolutely not.
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.

  9. #209
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    I suspect that would only be an issue if you were to have that style of conversation with, for instance, the person who is put off by it and drag her against her will into the conversation, instead of allowing her to stay on the sidelines. Iow, when it's not consensual and you force them to engage you anyways, @Coriolis.
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  10. #210
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    It is revealing that we must devote so much of our time to policing bad behaviour.

    How much better our time would be spent if we were encouraging empathy, creativity, presence, and intellectual integrity.

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