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  1. #241
    Senior Member INTJMom's Avatar
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    I've noticed that almost all threads derail, no matter which forum I'm at. I think it's just human nature. All of a sudden, I'm reading a string of half a dozen short posts that have nothing to do with the OP. Finally, someone comes along, responding to the OP and we're back on track again. I wouldn't be surprised if it was actually quantifiable and predictable.

    Every so often, it's time for a commercial break or a little comic relief. I think it's human nature, so I don't think it can be stopped or prevented in such a way that would encourage people to keep coming here. In other words, it could conceivably be stopped or prevented, but then no one would like it here anymore because it would be too strict.

    I don't like thread derailments either, but they happen.

  2. #242
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Well said, INTJMom.
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  3. #243
    Senior Member INTJMom's Avatar
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    Technically, THIS is a derailment! LOL!!

  4. #244
    Senior Member Dom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    So we're back to the whole self moderation ideals and gentle pushing of fluffiness away from the grey matter posts. Surely if people want this then it will happen, mob rule/ democracy and all that.
    Peronsally i only prefer mob rule when i know it's my mob rulling

    hehehe...

    Oh and who left this one:
    Approval given in secret expressly to frustrate you, as well as to drive you to seek revenge.
    I have no idea... and i can't just randomly give everyone positive feedback.. that would result in sillyness and I couldn't be having that could I?

  5. #245
    Senior Member substitute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by athenian200 View Post
    I think it had something to do with all the in-jokes and threads that dredge up old ideas/arguments, as well as the lack of more purely MBTI/technical kinds of threads. It made me kind of sad that we give off such a cliquish air.
    Ahem... I've noticed that in the fun/jokey threads, anyone who posts is responded to and included in the fun. Nobody's left out. Also, when 'old ideas/arguments' are 'dredged up', links are normally provided so that anyone who wishes to pursue them can clue themselves up if they wish... I don't see the problem there...

    However, I (and I've noticed it happening to others too) am frequently ignored in more serious threads, even when I'm making a valid point. For example, I was the first to respond to Eileen's questions about NT's and grief, sharing my own recent experiences, and I wasn't even acknowledged at all. Also, in the latest religious thread only Oberon responded to anything I said even though I was talking on topic and exploring valid points.

    So I'm a bit confused about why you seem to be associating cliquishness/people being ignored or excluded etc with the light-hearted threads/posters?

    ----

    I sometimes wonder, when you people who are so enamoured of the serious threads are complaining about the lack of them, just why you don't start your own 'decent' threads and while away the hours being serious with each other there? And if people come along with fluff, why not just ignore it and continue your discussion? After all, all we're talking about here is an extra couple of seconds for another scroll or click of the mouse!!

    The presence of light-hearted threads - even if there were a thousand a day - doesn't prevent anyone from making or posting in threads that are more serious.

    Some people just aren't the serious types, and some people have enough pain and suffering and seriousness in RL so that they don't really feel like more of it in their virtual lives. If this is truly an MBTI board, open and accepting to all types and meeting their needs, we all just have to accept that some MBTI types are more fond of fluff and light hearted stuff than serious debates. I don't think it's fair to tell these people to just stay in their little corner and not disturb the clever people while they're talking... it's a little patronizing.

    I don't see many ENFP's getting on the INTJ's backs for not joining in the fun and games, or cursing at BlueWing for not starting enough "I love holiday tree decorations!!!!" type threads, so why should the fluffy people be treated as second class citizens of inferior intellect? Unless we're really going for a RL feel to this place...??? Or unless, as I said before, the idea isn't to meet the needs or preferences of the different types, but to provide a passtime or whatever for the site's owners, in which case why all the pretence at democracy with the polls etc?

    Just all seems a bit of a double standard to me. If fluffers come into a serious thread and make a joke, they should go stand in the corner while their comments are removed from the thread and dismissed. But if intellectuals come into a light hearted thread and make an incisive observation that nobody gets, people just ask what they mean and make the effort to include them. Yet somehow the intellectuals are the long-suffering superior ones, whilst the fluffy people are annoying and cliquish??
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  6. #246
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    The presence of light-hearted threads - even if there were a thousand a day - doesn't prevent anyone from making or posting in threads that are more serious.
    To use that rough analogy, 1000 threads a day would make up some 40 pages of "new" threads. I'm certainly not going to be searching through it.

    There are three major constraints on how people post

    1) The ability to find a thread of interest
    2) The ability to read through the thread
    3) The time to do the above and post.

    The first two talk about the quantity. I don't think anyone has complained significantly until either the fluff is in nearly every thread or the number of threads exceeded a certain threshold. The same could be said for serious stuff.

    #3 Governs how people act. I tend to take more time when posting but less time when skimming. For example, I'll open up to 40 new "threads" in the morning, on average. I scan through to see if there is anything new in a thread I have answered first, then I scan the other thread's titles and posters to decide if I should scan that thread, which is normally reading the first and last few posts. I'll read it all if it interests me.

    Given that I have limited time and will only respond when something attracts my attention, if there are great many threads that don't interest me, I scan faster and I don't open any. If I do open a thread (say, a serious one, or one that could be serious) and it has fluff towards the most recent posts, I simply close the post. If I open up a thread I have originally posted on and it no longer is on the topic I was interested in, I close it.

    In short, I'm not going to make effort to re-rail threads. I'll do it in macro after a social change (ie: perpetuate serious arguments I've stopped caring about to keep balance), but that's if I have time, if I'm motivated to do it and if I think it'll help.

    I would agree with your symmetry if you could quantify how serious people jump into fluffy threads and then turn them all serious (I sometimes do this if someone asks a question inside of it.) I don't see them as equal in terms of dynamics. This is not to say that one or the other is good or bad, but they work differently. I enjoy having both on the same forum, but I do not enjoy having them both in the same conversation. I see one as social contributions and the other as debate contributions. You really don't want people jumping into social ones and being 'party poopers' (driving the conversations serious or really out of whack) any more than you want conversations on genetics to involve "what are you doing this weekend". But social threads are easily moved about - it takes a lot to change the tone of those. (Heh, see my birthday thread as an example!). However, it is easy to change the nature of a serious post due to length of posts, time it takes to read through them, etc.

    I agree on the respect angle, however. Uber, for example, showed respect by stopping his line of posts when it became unpopular. I expect similar attitudes from everyone, no matter how or what they post... and I've seen it so far.

    As far as the ignoring part goes, the social threads will include everyone - most people, however, will only respond in debate threads if they disagree or agree... or just have something to say. Different purpose. For example, your bit on bible literacy and mysticism of the written word was very interesting to me, but I had nothing I could add to it. I'm not using the reputation system until it goes permanent, if it does, but I would of used it there... but either way, I wouldn't of responded unless I had something to say.

    --

    This is what defines forum culture. Being able to find and jump into serious conversations that you enjoy and want to talk about is required for everyone (even ENFPs, ahem). So is having a group of friends you can banter around with (even bitter ISTPs like me). Both must be kept somewhat intact in order to appeal to people. Derails aren't the issue - the topics shift back and forth and that's natural. The nature of the kind of posts, however, can not shift and maintain form. If it happens, the original type of thread ceases to be posted. I, for example, would not continue to post serious answers to questions being asked if the thread was derailed into a "what are you doing this weekend". I would also not banter about if there were a bunch of people walking in and saying "what I was doing this weekend" is wrong/stupid/whatever. A thread should stay true to it's form, if not content. It's the least amount of organisation required to allow people to communicate.

  7. #247
    Senior Member INTJMom's Avatar
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    Wow. Two excellent posts.

  8. #248
    The Black Knight Domino's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTJMom View Post
    Wow. Two excellent posts.
    Agreed! Well-said, Sub and Gats!

    I think Gats raises one good point especially overlooked. Many people feel engaged with a subject but don't feel that they have anything of "value" to contribute, so they remain silent. That's the nature of serious conversation. Thoughtful introspection. I know I don't talk my way through a mystical or deep moment. I need to steep in it, silently.

    But anyone can chip in on a joke! That's the inclusiveness of humor. And humor, for the record, does NOT equal "daft".

    Also, I personally want to put in that the word "fluffy" be banned from use. I find it derogatory, elitist and dismissive. Those who are gifted with banter need not be relegated to the stupidity pile. I'd pit my IQ against anyone here and not be embarrassed, no matter what the outcome. I don't need to bolster my confidence like a balding man at a hair clinic.
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  9. #249
    filling some space UnitOfPopulation's Avatar
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    Popular topics are good, and I at least am most incapable of being popular. So I'm happy that someone is doing it for me. But I still wonder.. do you intend to get rid of all people/topics that aren't popular? Isn't that just kind of new elitism?

    I'm reading that you have some aggression against people who write about difficult topics.

    I wonder if you think that anyone writing difficult stuff tries to establish themselves at the top of the elite class or something.

    If you are so inclusive, shouldn't you accept both styles of communications? Perhaps I'm jumping to conclusions. I just feel that you don't appreciate the NT way like it is, not at least when the NT act the way they are.

  10. #250
    Senior Member Nonpareil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Santtu View Post
    Popular topics are good, and I at least am most incapable of being popular. So I'm happy that someone is doing it for me. But I still wonder.. do you intend to get rid of all people/topics that aren't popular? Isn't that just kind of new elitism?
    I haven't posted much recently but I have been following this reputation system threads closely. Personally, I feel like this is a huge popularity contest. It's all about who has more point and who doesn't. I don't like it. I don't care if I'm popular, I just like being here so that I can learn about different mbti types and relate to more NT's. I have a hard time finding a group of people that I can relate to and that I can feel really would understand me.

    Recently, I have lost that motivation to visit this site and post because I feel like everything I have to say is ignored. I feel more and more like I've entered a forum consisting of social cliques. I do not feel like I can relate to anyone anymore and I feel even less like I could talk to anyone. Most posts I have made in the last two weeks has basically been ignored and I found that the number of posts that I could relate to and share my thoughts on is lost. It greatly saddens me because for the first time in my life, I felt there was a place I could belong to and be accepted. I do not feel that anymore.

    It's not that I have anything personally against the reputation system but I do think it's being used the wrong way. As many people stated (those with a lot of rep points and those without), mostly admit that most of their points were from "fluffy" posts - not from deep, intellectual and insightful posts. I'm sorry, I'm a rather serious person. I lack my many life experiences and although I'm serious, I like to listen and hear the many life stories people here have. I'm getting very little of that now. With people rewarding people with points for cute and funny posts, we lose the incentive to post what we really think and feel. I admit, I don't have many points, and it doesn't matter to me. But what does matter is that I find that I don't have anyone who cares about what I have to say anymore, things get derailed and lost. I don't have time to filter through everything and maybe if I did, I can find what I'm looking for again....

    I'm reading that you have some aggression against people who write about difficult topics.

    I wonder if you think that anyone writing difficult stuff tries to establish themselves at the top of the elite class or something.
    I've always have a hard time fitting in, because I never care to fit in. Maybe I'm too serious, but my purpose for joining mbtic was to find more people I could talk to and relate to. I liked sharing my thoughts and feelings with everyone and I like hearing about people's experiences. I learn that way because I was deprived of it. I lack self confidence and I want to say, this site has helped me start to get over it. But now, my posts are ignored and I fear that it will remain that way. There is too much emphasis on how many points one has and what their reputation they have. I'm sorry, but I don't think I can keep up, I have a lot to learn and I'm trying to do that.

    If you are so inclusive, shouldn't you accept both styles of communications? Perhaps I'm jumping to conclusions. I just feel that you don't appreciate the NT way like it is, not at least when the NT act the way they are.
    I donno, maybe I'm the only one who sees this, but it could be my own interpretation on what this forum is....I've lost those threads/people that I can truly talk to and relate to. To me, the purpose of MBTIc is lost. That is what saddens me about this rep system - not the "fluff" or the points but the content and attitude that is now dominating this forum.
    Sorry for any typos, spelling or grammer errors but I'm a bit preoccupied planning my wedding.
    Or if you want to read more about me and help me gain more insight to your world (I do need more experiences in life), feel free to skim through my blog.

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