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  1. #81
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mal12345 View Post
    Because this is page 8 of this old thread. Anything after page 3 is fair game for a vaguely OP-related rant.
    We might break it out if it takes on a better life of its own...

    As for the stats you mentioned, I've felt that way about them for years, if not decades.
    1. All the stats are based on self-typing which is a method rife with error.
    It seems all methods have flaws. Self-typing exists because it's convenient, people know more about themselves (especially the unverbalized/internalized components), and because it's relevant to decision-making. Then again, you lose perspective and might have blind spots to your own behavior, or false conceptions of self.

    External typing offers the benefit of an outsider's view, potentially "more objective" assessment, seeing what people actually do (rather than imagine they do), it's more quantifiable. There are different types of external assessment (singular assessment by an "expert," collected data pools from a variety of observers about the person in question, etc.)

    It seems to me some sort of method that combines approaches would be the most successful.

    2. Many of the types in any given system are more or less similar to one another. It seems that the more types a system has, the more similarity there is between type-descriptions. So you might end up reading and studying a few pages on type "look-alikes" when trying to decide on your own place in the system.
    True. Less descriptions leaves more possibility you won't fit with any, more descriptions means there will likely be overlap and uncertainty.
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  2. #82
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    True. Less descriptions leaves more possibility you won't fit with any, more descriptions means there will likely be overlap and uncertainty.
    Not necessarily. More description could mean more specific details, therefore less likely to encompass everyone, increasing the possibility you won't fit any. Less description could just be open-ended vagueness that allows you to fill in anything, creating uncertainty.
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  3. #83
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Just a note: When you use loaded language like this, it leads me to distrust your judgment. "Dared"? No, Haight just made what amounted to an offhand comment for him, there was no real argument that anyone even saw to discuss at the time. You're kind of creating your own conflict here by reading so much into it.
    Thank you, as always I enjoy reading your insightful comments/notes. And no, that's not BS.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    I'm not sure I know who Seich is, but Riso's probably the most thorough Enneagram proponent I've read. The thing is, he's ENTIRELY theoretical. There's no basis for anything in the Enneagram being accurate, it's not even rooted in quantifiable testing... it's basically a homespun collection of personality archetypes within which Riso managed to connect together consistent patterns of dynamics behavior (especially the Patterns of Dis/Integration) to tie into his own spiritual understanding of people. I think he's brilliant, but whether the theory is "true or not" is probably a lesser question compared to whether the theory is "useful."
    Riso seems to me a major proponent of the rationalist school of thought. That would include spiritual understanding. As a type 4 (he wrote me a personal letter on stationery stating he was a 4, but he did not include his wing type), I think he has some strongly developed Ni but is entirely lacking in the Te you mentioned below. At least his writing reflects this mindset.

    As for "true or not," I cannot at this time declare any form of typology to be true or false. Or I could say they are all false with regard to the infinite complexity of the human psyche.

    And anyway, all I wanted to do in my first comment was to point out that Haight seemed afraid that changing the name of the forum would allow in a few of the riff-raff, and while that was my term and not his, I think it is an apt interpretation of his thought there. Besides, if this forum were still limited to MBTI discussion I would not have stayed for as long as I have.

    As an aside, the scientific view of typology would and should consider all typology to be in the intellectual domain of riff-raff. But that's okay with me because I'm not a scientist. I've seen the MBTI knocked down from its logical perch, and I'm sure the same could be done with most typology systems. I personally took to task Harrison-Bramson (The Art of Thinking). No matter, I still like to study and learn from these riff-raff kinds of systems.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    So I was just kind of surprised to see you in such broad ways cutting down Myers, without providing any sort of argument. There are flaws within MBTI as well, but she did try to work from within data, test after test (INFPs who develop Te try to really root their intuitions in quantifiable info); and there's still a lot of data collection going on.

    I think the system itself is VERY easy to convert to lay language. Unfortunately, this has resulted in the plethora of sloppy MBTI tests that inundating the web for the last 10-15 years or so. Popularizing of ideas is not something unique to MBTI; any form of inquiry, when simplified to the level of the uninitiated, is going to lose the nuance of the original ideas and maybe even deviate in some ways. We could easily be talking about popularization of ideas like string theory or evolution now.

    I've been happy to see a strong push back towards cog functions nowadays.
    Actually, I didn't cut down Myers, I said she was probably insightful about people, but we don't know that much about her. The lack of information on both of them is frustrating. Myers was definitely weaker on theory, and I've discussed this before on this forum. Or perhaps she just didn't care about using circular logic. She created a system based on Jung and her own personal understanding of typology, and then invented a test designed, not just to determine type, but as logical support for the system. Thus she can "prove" that everybody is one of those 16 types simply by omitting all other possibilities. I could say the same about other tests for other systems; but some systems (Oldham, ansir) do put the empirical data first.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
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  4. #84
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    Smile A Fortuitous Result

    How fortunate that we changed our name to Typology Central. But we haven't gone quite far enough yet. For 'typology' is the study of types. It may be the study of literary types, or chemical types, or types of countries, even psychological types, but whatever can be typed can be studied by typology. So 'typology' does mean the study of psychological types, but it doesn't mean just the study of psychological types.

    This has great value to us as it allows us a cosmopolitanism that finds its home in the global village, as we all do here.

    So a fortuitous accident has led to a fortuitious result.

  5. #85
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    How fortunate that we changed our name to Typology Central. But we haven't gone quite far enough yet. For 'typology' is the study of types. It may be the study of literary types, or chemical types, or types of countries, even psychological types, but whatever can be typed can be studied by typology. So 'typology' does mean the study of psychological types, but it doesn't mean just the study of psychological types.

    This has great value to us as it allows us a cosmopolitanism that finds its home in the global village, as we all do here.

    So a fortuitous accident has led to a fortuitious result.
    Do you still believe the MBTI is a world-wide cult?
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  6. #86
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    Smile Falling in and out of love

    Quote Originally Posted by mal12345 View Post
    Do you still believe the MBTI is a world-wide cult?
    I think it is important to fall in love with MBTI and it is important to fall out of love with MBTI. It is important to be illusioned and then be disillusioned. My task here has been to bring disillusion to the illusioned.

    We perceive by making distinctions, and so we see by the light of the distinction, in this case the distinction, illusion/disillusion.

    And what is gratifying is how genuine is the disillusion, showing how genuine was the illusion.

    Of course the illusioned tend to be happy, and the disillusioned tend to be unhappy, and in this case, unhappy with me. And their unhappiness with me is a measure of their authenticity.

  7. #87
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    I think it is important to fall in love with MBTI and it is important to fall out of love with MBTI. It is important to be illusioned and then be disillusioned. My task here has been to bring disillusion to the illusioned.

    We perceive by making distinctions, and so we see by the light of the distinction, in this case the distinction, illusion/disillusion.

    And what is gratifying is how genuine is the disillusion, showing how genuine was the illusion.

    Of course the illusioned tend to be happy, and the disillusioned tend to be unhappy, and in this case, unhappy with me. And their unhappiness with me is a measure of their authenticity.
    Ohhh, so you're an authenticity wonk! I like it.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  8. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by mal12345 View Post
    Ohhh, so you're an authenticity wonk! I like it.
    Rather the Americans see the world through the distinction authentic/phoney, while I see the world through the distinction amusing/boring.

    These are cultural distinctions. For instance, we say, the Queen is not amused, but not only do the Americans not have a Queen, but they have no sense of humour while telling us they have the best sense of humour in the world. And so naturally, the Queen is not amused.

  9. #89
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    Rather the Americans see the world through the distinction authentic/phoney, while I see the world through the distinction amusing/boring.

    These are cultural distinctions. For instance, we say, the Queen is not amused, but not only do the Americans not have a Queen, but they have no sense of humour while telling us they have the best sense of humour in the world. And so naturally, the Queen is not amused.
    I'm an American and I have never told anybody I have the best sense of humor in the world. But aren't you contradicting yourself above where you say your distinction is "amusing/boring" while in a post just before that you declared a preference for authenticity?
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  10. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by mal12345 View Post
    I'm an American and I have never told anybody I have the best sense of humor in the world. But aren't you contradicting yourself above where you say your distinction is "amusing/boring" while in a post just before that you declared a preference for authenticity?
    OHHHH snap.

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