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  1. #71
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacGuffin View Post
    At least you aren't all pedantic about the issue.
    Then let me just say that since I've been here I haven't seen the non-MBTI riff-raff that came wandering in since the fateful name-change.
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  2. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by mal12345 View Post
    Then let me just say that since I've been here I haven't seen the non-MBTI riff-raff that came wandering in since the fateful name-change.
    Oh, do go on!

  3. #73
    Courage is immortality Valiant's Avatar
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    I was just going to say something about "bantha poodoo" and that the above named plumbers of depth should stick to plumbing, and that "typoes" itself is a typo.
    MBTI is king, everything else pretty much *is* second rate semi-hippie typology... Just look at it. It's a mystery why it even needs explaining.
    Most typology has more in common with astrology than psychology. Of course there are interesting elements present in many theories.
    That I do not deny. I'd mostly use those theories in an auxiliary position to the MBTI, though.
    Enneagram, for instance, says a lot about attitudes and interaction styles, and that is pretty nice as a supplement.

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  4. #74
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacGuffin View Post
    Oh, do go on!
    Ok. It may be non-MBTI, but it's not "riff-raff," as I termed the allegedly bad typologies. I haven't seen any bad ones. Even Harrison-Bramson's typology is not bad, it is just a third runner-up that's based on a faulty premise. But it's worthy of some serious discussion.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
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  5. #75
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by YourLocalJesus View Post
    I was just going to say something about "bantha poodoo" and that the above named plumbers of depth should stick to plumbing, and that "typoes" itself is a typo.
    MBTI is king, everything else pretty much *is* second rate semi-hippie typology... Just look at it. It's a mystery why it even needs explaining.
    Most typology has more in common with astrology than psychology. Of course there are interesting elements present in many theories.
    That I do not deny. I'd mostly use those theories in an auxiliary position to the MBTI, though.
    Enneagram, for instance, says a lot about attitudes and interaction styles, and that is pretty nice as a supplement.
    There is no correct spelling of "typoes/typos." And even if "typos" were correct, "typoes" would be a misspelling and not a typo.

    Using the MBTI as primary over the Enneagram is a matter of personal choice. I happened to run across the MBTI before the Enneagram, yet I found the latter to be much more helpful. But that's just me. I happen to be more of an Enneagrammist because of the profound self-discovery it led me to. Whereas, on the other hand, the MBTI led me to nothing more profound than a 4-letter designation.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
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  6. #76
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    LOL, in the real world, people tend towards the DISC as it is easier to understand for the guy who gets to spend one hour listening and have a label slapped on.

    The MBTI seems like a better tool, but over and over again, when giving full Step IIs, people mistype via questions but during type verification type correctly or at least sway only on the letters which point towards the tert-inf functions, just like you'd expect.

    Every time I look through the MBTI manual, all I can do is recall how many people here and in the real world mistype or spend months trying to find a "correct" type, thus from a global level I am led to take all of the stats in the manual with a very big grain of salt.

    I do wonder how many issues arise from the types of questions asked and the Marketing/precedent behind holding onto a conserved set of questions as to maintain brand/marketing value. I would be very interested in having a handful of adults take the MMTI-c and see type became more clear, given all of those questions were written and tested anew and seem to probe for more fundamental diffs, given they are aimed at kids. (i dunno why I stuck this rant here haha)

  7. #77
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    LOL, in the real world, people tend towards the DISC as it is easier to understand for the guy who gets to spend one hour listening and have a label slapped on.

    The MBTI seems like a better tool, but over and over again, when giving full Step IIs, people mistype via questions but during type verification type correctly or at least sway only on the letters which point towards the tert-inf functions, just like you'd expect.

    Every time I look through the MBTI manual, all I can do is recall how many people here and in the real world mistype or spend months trying to find a "correct" type, thus from a global level I am led to take all of the stats in the manual with a very big grain of salt.

    I do wonder how many issues arise from the types of questions asked and the Marketing/precedent behind holding onto a conserved set of questions as to maintain brand/marketing value. I would be very interested in having a handful of adults take the MMTI-c and see type became more clear, given all of those questions were written and tested anew and seem to probe for more fundamental diffs, given they are aimed at kids. (i dunno why I stuck this rant here haha)
    Because this is page 8 of this old thread. Anything after page 3 is fair game for a vaguely OP-related rant.

    As for the stats you mentioned, I've felt that way about them for years, if not decades.

    1. All the stats are based on self-typing which is a method rife with error.
    2. Many of the types in any given system are more or less similar to one another. It seems that the more types a system has, the more similarity there is between type-descriptions. So you might end up reading and studying a few pages on type "look-alikes" when trying to decide on your own place in the system.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  8. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by mal12345 View Post
    You could just as easily ask Haight who he was referring to as lacking in psychological knowledge. But for some reason nobody dared question that statement back in 2008.
    Just a note: When you use loaded language like this, it leads me to distrust your judgment. "Dared"? No, Haight just made what amounted to an offhand comment for him, there was no real argument that anyone even saw to discuss at the time. You're kind of creating your own conflict here by reading so much into it.

    Typologists such as Don Riso and Sandra Seich simply amaze me. I don't have to agree with everything they write to say that they have an innate knack for plumbing those depths I referred to.
    I'm not sure I know who Seich is, but Riso's probably the most thorough Enneagram proponent I've read. The thing is, he's ENTIRELY theoretical. There's no basis for anything in the Enneagram being accurate, it's not even rooted in quantifiable testing... it's basically a homespun collection of personality archetypes within which Riso managed to connect together consistent patterns of dynamics behavior (especially the Patterns of Dis/Integration) to tie into his own spiritual understanding of people. I think he's brilliant, but whether the theory is "true or not" is probably a lesser question compared to whether the theory is "useful."

    So I was just kind of surprised to see you in such broad ways cutting down Myers, without providing any sort of argument. There are flaws within MBTI as well, but she did try to work from within data, test after test (INFPs who develop Te try to really root their intuitions in quantifiable info); and there's still a lot of data collection going on.

    Perhaps Myers and Briggs did too, there isn't that much information on them as people. But the MBTI has the advantage over newer theories simply by achieving popularity first. Part of this popularity is due to the simplicity of their system.
    I think the system itself is VERY easy to convert to lay language. Unfortunately, this has resulted in the plethora of sloppy MBTI tests that inundating the web for the last 10-15 years or so. Popularizing of ideas is not something unique to MBTI; any form of inquiry, when simplified to the level of the uninitiated, is going to lose the nuance of the original ideas and maybe even deviate in some ways. We could easily be talking about popularization of ideas like string theory or evolution now.

    ....they had to build on a simplistic variation on Jung's theory. And so Jung's theory was sacrificed to popularizing Jung.
    I've been happy to see a strong push back towards cog functions nowadays.
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  9. #79
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mal12345 View Post
    Continued:
    John Oldham is certainly no second-rater. I saw his work being bashed over on "that other forum." One of the criticisms there stated that his online test can't be taken seriously because it contained some typoes.
    Now there's irony for you: You know that "typoes" is a misspelling of "typos"?

    But I wouldn't discount a theory just because of typos. It would simply make me a little more wary in my testing of it. Dismissing a theory on cosmetics is simply sloppy and potentially erroneous.

    But for what it's worth, the version of the test in his book has none of those typoes. Not that it matters in terms of a test's validity. As a proud owner of his book on the personality self-portrait, I can personally testify that Oldham's work is definitely worth looking into.
    I know, I've owned a copy of his book for years. We've discussed integration among Oldham, MBTI, and Enneagram before on this forum. (You can find a variation of the mapping on the ptypes.com blog forum.) Again, Oldham's styles remind me of Enneagram in that they're more archetypical. MBTI purposes that the four binary pairs offer complete coverage of the personality grid, whereas that is not ensured within Enneagram or Oldham, which just described predefined types of people with type (not function) being the basic building block of the theories.

    They're all really very different views of personality... in the same sense that world cultures are not all exactly the same culture using just different languages but actual distinct unique ways of perceiving and processing the world.

    So while Haight's criticism may have been directed at the really bad theories (whatever they are), the way he stated his point seemed designed to cover any non-MBTI. There is just no other way to read it since we have no way of sorting the good from the bad.
    On the contrary, he simply referred to 'some other theories' as a generic placeholder, and for some reason you insisted on inferring he specifically was dissing theories that you personally hold in high regard. Maybe it would been better to clarify that, rather than merely assume it? (For the record, Haight never much participated in the type discussions on the boards either.)
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  10. #80
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    LOL, in the real world, people tend towards the DISC as it is easier to understand for the guy who gets to spend one hour listening and have a label slapped on.
    DISC is interesting, but again it gives a completely DIFFERENT slice of personality. It seems very much to be focused on someone's preferred working and interaction style, not really trying to assess the entire personality. I think it has more in common with Beren's "Interaction Styles" based on the MBTI. I mean, you're really just a combination of Dominance, Influence, Steadiness, and Compliance -- they're all positions we take up when dealing with others.

    I do wonder how many issues arise from the types of questions asked and the Marketing/precedent behind holding onto a conserved set of questions as to maintain brand/marketing value. I would be very interested in having a handful of adults take the MMTI-c and see type became more clear, given all of those questions were written and tested anew and seem to probe for more fundamental diffs, given they are aimed at kids. (i dunno why I stuck this rant here haha)
    I took a heavy battery of tests when looking for a new career back in 1996 or so. I wish I had had the details results of that (I think I had even taken the MMPI), but unfortunately the test giver merely interpreted it for me, and I was also very depressed and somewhat neurotic at the time, so I know he had said some of my results seemed contradictory to him. Some tests don't seem very accessible (in terms of scoring and seeing the underpinnings of the tests) unless you're a licensed practitioner.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

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