ENTJ's, Maybe just misunderstood?

[Orsenfelt]

So I have recently gotten interested in the whole MBTI 'thing'. I constantly score as ENTJ. I've tried answering different ways on the 'could go either way' questions and I still score ENTJ. I don't think I have ever gotten anything else. I don't mind this, I enjoy being strong of head, I enjoy not bowing down to people and I enjoy being able to see the bigger picture as it where...

Now, Coming here and reading various threads about ENTJ.. The general consensus seems to be that we are all a-typical masculine males, Loud mouth, Arrogant/Ignorant people who don't listen to anyone. I don't think this is right, Maybe we are just misunderstood because you know what, I hate those types of people too..

So please, Let me explain what I think I am, Where I am coming from.. I'd like to see if other ENTJ's can agree =)

• I do have strong opinions
• I will voice those opinions. However I do my best to listen to any reasoned answer, I don't think I am always right. (Well, Ok, I concede.. I am right until someone can give me a decent reason why I am not..)
• I don't suffer fools gladly
• I will walk away from meaningless conversations (To me meaningless is mundane conversations where no fact is actually exchanged for quite some time, Like chatting about TV Soaps.. why? It's fiction and it's not even very good fiction at that.) However I'd never do it to a friend or someone that has 'proved' themselve to me.
• I don't raise my voice
• I consider my thoughts before I speak
• I will argue a point.. but I think I'm respectful.
• I listen carefully to your response, I validate, I Give my response
• I can take criticism, things don't always have to be done my way, Just give me a reason why yours is better.
• I'm civil, I don't interrupt or laugh etc
  That said, I'm not one for trivial social 'nice-ities'
• I'm not a control freak, I respect your opinion, I respect that you can live your life the way you want to.. I just expect a bit of understanding when I tell you why I think you are wrong. If you can take onboard my opinion and give me a decent rebuttal.. You gain respect and and you have a place in my house any day. If you can't, You're a close minded moron?
  
• I wouldn't say I am goal-chasing or shallow too much. I enjoy nice things, I enjoy having money in the bank, I aspire to better things, However I could do without it.. I just don't see why I should?
  I don't set out to take over the world, I agree that if the opportunity was handed to me.. I'd have a go, Wouldn't everyone?
  I don't pretend to be good at everything, However I think I am good at leading, explaining and organizing. I don't see why I should have to know every detail of your business and every detail of someone else's business just to be good at getting you working together?
  
• I care deeply about my friends, and family who have proven themselves worthy (I have a lot of troubled extended family who, Quite honestly.. Aren't really all that worthy of the space they occupy. I don't believe you should love your family unconditionally, They are people too which in turn means they can possibly be complete bastards also..)

Basically, It boils down to this. Everyone is an idiot, a fool, nobody.. Until you prove otherwise. Nothing major, Just prove you know your own mind, That your not in the habit of making things up and I let you in, I consider your ideas and value your input. If on the other hand you have nothing to contribute, You may aswell be mute and invisible as far as I am concerned.

That's not to say you only have 1 chance, You don't, I'm very clear about that I will say "Right, This is your second chance.. Impress me." However, eventually the door does shut and it's your fault you ain't allowed back in. You shouldn't have wasted the chances I gave you.

I guess, Obviously as I am ENTJ I don't really see any problem with any of this. I guess I can come across a bit heavy handed or arrogant.. However it's only to people who don't put any effort in. If your not willing to contribute to something, anything, I don't see why I should waste my time on you?

So yeh.. That covers it all really...
Do other ENTJ's agree?
Do non ENTJ's think otherwise?
Thoughts please =)

P.S. Yes, I spent quite some time organizing this post so it is easy to read. I hate walls of text =(

[substitute]

I understand ENTJ's perfectly. They're awesome
Probably the type with whom I've had the fewest negative experiences (biggest negative experience for me is confusion - I never feel confused with these folks).

BUT, there is also the tiny factor that, IME, they tend to be real jerks 'til they get to about their late 20's or 30's... then again, so do most people

[Orsenfelt]

Originally Posted by substitute

I understand ENTJ's perfectly. They're awesome
Probably the type with whom I've had the fewest negative experiences (biggest negative experience for me is confusion - I never feel confused with these folks).

BUT, there is also the tiny factor that, IME, they tend to be real jerks 'til they get to about their late 20's or 30's... then again, so do most people

I guess it's about learning to control it..

I think I control it well, However I guess being Scottish doesn't help the situation. I'm not actually angry at you, I just happen to have a very raw, forthcoming accent... Don't be afraid :P

[Maverick]

Maybe it's just that other people don't feel appreciated by ENTJ's.

We don't always realize but it's important to show appreciation to other people and say positive things about them.

Being openly rational about everything isn't great for relationships...

[Gen]

Its so funny, because its still about perpectives. My father is an ENTJ so I can't say I dislike them or anything but your views are typical excuses really.

Originally Posted by Orsenfelt

[*]I will voice those opinions. However I do my best to listen to any reasoned answer, I don't think I am always right. (Well, Ok, I concede.. I am right until someone can give me a decent reason why I am not..)

The problem is that you will listen to a "reasoned" answer, but you are the judge of what that is.

I don't suffer fools gladly

and you probably don't mind letting them know that either

I will walk away from meaningless conversations (To me meaningless is mundane conversations where no fact is actually exchanged for quite some time, Like chatting about TV Soaps.. why? It's fiction and it's not even very good fiction at that.)

I do understand why you would want to do this but its, in a word, rude.

However I'd never do it to a friend or someone that has 'proved' themselve to me.

They have to prove themselves to you before you'll allow your time to be wasted by their petty thoughts? (This is where that arrogant thing comes in.)

I will argue a point.. but I think I'm respectful.

YOU think you are. My father has a way of laughing quietly when I speak sometimes. He probably doesn't even realize how disrespectful of me it feels, because basically, he tries.

I can take criticism, things don't always have to be done my way, Just give me a reason why yours is better.

The problem is, how often does someone elses reason make sense to you? Again, its subjective, and the ENTJ tends to assume he's right.

I'm not a control freak, I respect your opinion, I respect that you can live your life the way you want to.. I just expect a bit of understanding when I tell you why I think you are wrong. If you can take onboard my opinion and give me a decent rebuttal.. You gain respect and and you have a place in my house any day. If you can't, You're a close minded moron?

Must I really? You're saying that you respect others opinion and way of living, but you're going to tell them them why its wrong anyway. And without a decent rebuttal (in YOUR opinion, again) the person must be a closed minded moron. That is not respect of a persons opinion, its knowledge of the fact that they have their own, that's all. Respect of a person and their opinions includes finding a way to give your opinion gently, and not taking it personally when they disagree. Acceptance of the fact that you two have different opinions and that doesn't mean that either of you are idiots is what respect is.

I care deeply about my friends, and family who have proven themselves worthy (I have a lot of troubled extended family who, Quite honestly.. Aren't really all that worthy of the space they occupy. I don't believe you should love your family unconditionally, They are people too which in turn means they can possibly be complete bastards also..)

Not a very loving thing to say, but I agree with you... lol

I guess, Obviously as I am ENTJ I don't really see any problem with any of this. I guess I can come across a bit heavy handed or arrogant.. However it's only to people who don't put any effort in. If your not willing to contribute to something, anything, I don't see why I should waste my time on you?

That's exactly where the arrogance comes off. The thing is that ENTJs can accept they might be wrong but they don't think that they are and since they are the judge of what is right and wrong in their own opinion its difficult to convince them. This is in contrast with other types who actually question themselves and their own opinions openly. I'll tell you what my opinion is and that I might be missing something and wrong, and ENTJ will not usually do that. They're right until you provide proof that they're not.

Anyway, I'm not trying to attack you at all; it doesn't really make a difference to me. I'm just trying to show how you're still not really looking at yourself from an outside view. If you did, you'd see how its possible that you could be wrong and not even know it.

[Kora]

The problem with ENTJs is that they usually act like they're forgiving the others. Things like blessing us with their presence, or taking the effort of listening to what we have to say and consequently correct us. And what's worse, they often won't see it.
But they can also be nice when they like someone... I guess.

[Orsenfelt]

Originally Posted by Gen

Its so funny, because its still about perpectives. My father is an ENTJ so I can't say I dislike them or anything but your views are typical excuses really.

Hah, So right. It's difficult to see it from the outside. I will say, I don't see them as 'excuses', More .. reasons as to why I am like this?

That's to say, I'm not trying to justify my actions, They are just that straight forward to begin with heh.
(Yes, I realize taking the effort to reply is justifying.. godamnit)

The problem is that you will listen to a "reasoned" answer, but you are the judge of what that is.

While true, I'd like to think I'm quite open ended when it comes to that. I actively ask for input. I don't think I even have high standards, Basically don't just dribble and it's ok =)

Like now, I totally accept your answer because I'm man enough to admit I don't know me from the outside, If that makes sence..

and you probably don't mind letting them know that either

It depends really, I'm quite overly pleasant to people. Well, That is to say I don't tell them to shut up, I don't sigh, I don't do anything like that (Consciously, that I know of.. Nobody's ever said anything ). I'll just smile pleasantly, listen and wait out the conversation, Leaving with a kind of mediocre thought of event. You could say it's a very rude thing to not show your true colours.. but I can't help it if I don't like someone, I think being civil is a better way of dealing with it heh, It's more rational to me anyway.

Swings and Roundabouts I guess you could say.

I do understand why you would want to do this but its, in a word, rude.

It's not something I make a habit out of, I only pull it out on those 'special occasions'. Namely when there is a friend left behind to explain the situation.. heh

They have to prove themselves to you before you'll allow your time to be wasted by their petty thoughts? (This is where that arrogant thing comes in.)
YOU think you are. My father has a way of laughing quietly when I speak sometimes. He probably doesn't even realize how disrespectful of me it feels, because basically, he tries.

See, This is where I kind of go against some of the ENTJ write-ups I have red. I hate being disrespectful. It's true, I don't enjoy talking with many, many people. However I am pleasant enough not to make them feel like I really don't like them. Again it comes back to the 'Lying to their face' thing.
However I am fairly sure that if I was boring someone, I'd prefer they be very british about it and wait out the chat with a bit of class.

The problem is, how often does someone elses reason make sense to you? Again, its subjective, and the ENTJ tends to assume he's right.

Quite a lot actually, Depending on what it is.

For example, I own my own IT business. (Typical ENTJ I guess?). However I know fine well that I am not a creative person, I abandoned my creative side long ago. I specifically hired people to be my creative side. I have a general idea of what I think would work well, They go off and fill in the blanks. I've taught myself to trust them, I hired them because I wasn't creative, It's irrational to think I know any better..

Must I really? You're saying that you respect others opinion and way of living, but you're going to tell them them why its wrong anyway. And without a decent rebuttal (in YOUR opinion, again) the person must be a closed minded moron. That is not respect of a persons opinion, its knowledge of the fact that they have their own, that's all. Respect of a person and their opinions includes finding a way to give your opinion gently, and not taking it personally when they disagree. Acceptance of the fact that you two have different opinions and that doesn't mean that either of you are idiots is what respect is.

I think I worded that wrong. I do respect other peoples opinions, I just think it's common courtesy for you to take on board my opinion also. I listened to yours, You listen to mine. You don't have to act on it, You don't have to believe it, You can think I am a raving lunatic.. So long as you show me the same common courtesy I showed you, We are all equals after all.

I don't enforce my opinion on people, I don't get annoyed that someone isn't living their life how I would live their life.

I think maybe the listing gave this post an air of something that wasn't intentioned lol.

Not a very loving thing to say, but I agree with you... lol

Hah, I think it's more of an upbringing thing than anything. I know people of various types that dislike family..

That's exactly where the arrogance comes off. The thing is that ENTJs can accept they might be wrong but they don't think that they are and since they are the judge of what is right and wrong in their own opinion its difficult to convince them. This is in contrast with other types who actually question themselves and their own opinions openly. I'll tell you what my opinion is and that I might be missing something and wrong, and ENTJ will not usually do that. They're right until you provide proof that they're not.

I think you have estimated my standards too high. In my opinion, There are no degree's of a reasoned response. Like I said above, Just give me something. It doesn't have to be thought out to my standards, It doesn't have to comply with my rules.. Just, try.. even the slightest.

Obviously, You could say that that is a standard, However can you find anyone who thinks otherwise? If you ask someone a question and they reply "Meh".. Do you personally think that is an acceptable response?

Anyway, I'm not trying to attack you at all; it doesn't really make a difference to me. I'm just trying to show how you're still not really looking at yourself from an outside view. If you did, you'd see how its possible that you could be wrong and not even know it.

Hah, It's good fun, A good debate.

Can one truly see oneself from another perspective? I personally doubt it.
Ofcourse it's possible that I could be wrong, Infact more often than not I am wrong, but until someone gives me an alternate (Not better by my standards, Not logical.. Just something else to think over) to whatever I made up in my head.. I am right.

Basically, The point of my post, After some mulling over was down to one thing.

It seems that the E or I for NTJ's points a pretty extreme picture either way.
I score 69% E.. and reading the description makes me feel like a bit of a ****. I think realisticly I fall somewhere in the middle. I try to be as open, honest and have my opinions heard.. However I certainly hope I don't insult people just by doing so, That would be horrible 0.o

The descriptions of ENTJ paint a picture of a selfish, loud mouth, shallow and ignorant buffoon. While I can see the benefits of being that 'full on'.. I'd like to think it's not just a reflex, That I can control it...

[Orsenfelt]

Originally Posted by Kora

The problem with ENTJs is that they usually act like they're forgiving the others. Things like blessing us with their presence, or taking the effort of listening to what we have to say and consequently correct us. And what's worse, they often won't see it.
But they can also be nice when they like someone... I guess.

Playing devil's advocate: Is that us acting like we forgive you, Or is that you having a lower opinion of yourself making what you hear convoluted?

[Economica]

Excellent post, Gen.

I'm about to hand in a master's thesis written in collaboration with an ENTJ. Overall she's been great, truly, and I especially respect and appreciate her objectivity (I call it objectivity because, both of us being NTJs, we tend to share the same subjective view of what's objectively true ) but one thing I would like to change about her is the right-until-proven-wrong attitude: She will put forward an idea or a viewpoint and will want to act on it immediately. I may instantly have my doubts but will often need time to crystallize my objection before I can convince her. She will accept that she needs to wait for me to do so but in the meantime she will exude an impatience that I'm sure less headstrong people than I find either too intimidating or too annoying or both for them to bother to provide their input, because the fact that she will openly and ungrudgingly acknowledge it when I turn out to be right (which is an improvement over INTJs!) is not enough to compensate for the resentment I feel at her initial impatience on account of the needless pressure it puts me under.

I've seen this with other ENTJs as well. Their steamroller approach turns people off for a variety of reasons (in my case, it's not so much the arrogance - I give as good as I get on that score - as the fact that my performance suffers when I'm put on the spot) and they therefore miss out on quality input that a more patient, self-doubting and open approach would in many cases yield (from the right people, anyway*). This is of course inefficient, which is ironic considering that ENTJs in my experience really are all about maximizing effiency and will in fact gladly incorporate quality input when they do get it.

* I'm not saying I don't understand why so many ENTJs come to adopt the steamroller approach; they/you *are* the most lightning-quick and competent in Te matters and so it's a decent rule of thumb that others probably have nothing to offer you - but there are many exceptions to the rule and missing out on the exceptions means achieving less excellence. If you're an ENTJ and you disagree that there are many exceptions, then you're either in an understimulating environment (which you can do something about (unless you're too young, but then take this opportunity to practice patience! )) or you can be sure that your attitude is turning off the people who could provide you with quality input.

[Orsenfelt]

Originally Posted by Economica

* I'm not saying I don't understand why so many ENTJs come to adopt the steamroller approach; they/you *are* the most lightning-quick and competent in Te matters and so it's a decent rule of thumb that others probably have nothing to offer you - but there are many exceptions to the rule and missing out on the exception means achieving less excellence. If you're an ENTJ and you disagree that there are many exceptions, then you're either in an understimulating environment (which you can do something about (unless you're too young, but then take this opportunity to practice patience! )) or you can be sure that your attitude is turning off the people who could provide you with quality input.

Excellent point.

I used to be pretty much 100% steamroller, It does work. However after a few years in the ever changing, ever-different IT world, Being surround by very knowledgeable people.. I learned to control it. I can bite my tongue now, If I start feeling that coming on =)

Don't get me wrong, I can pull it out from time to time and damnit stuff get's done! It's just not the best approach when dealing with new clients really..