NTs, how you test people's ideas?

[chatoyer]

(I'm trying to figure out if this is my NF-hypersensitive perception or not......)

Is it common for you guys to test everyone's ideas constantly? Do you do it more with non-NTs or do NTs get more of a pass? Is it a compliment? Is it an insult? Is it neutral? Do you ever get to a point with a person that you accept their ideas & insights without so much battle, scrutiny, skepticism?

I just feel like I'm constantly proving myself with some of the NTs in my life, am I oversensitive? Part of me is defensive about it, where I expect less of a battle...based on my history with the particular person, does my history of giving good insight, or presenting an interesting idea, or being more perceptive, not get factored into the present? Is it a jumbled mess, where I'm unaware of ideas I've had that have been rejected by the NT, so I'm put in this strange camp that some percentage of my ideas that are good determine my standing with these individual NT persons?

[Jennifer]

Originally Posted by chatoyer

Is it common for you guys to test everyone's ideas constantly? Do you do it more with non-NTs or do NTs get more of a pass? Is it a compliment? Is it an insult? Is it neutral? Do you ever get to a point with a person that you accept their ideas & insights without so much battle, scrutiny, skepticism?

I usually don't have to poke a ton on people's ideas, in the sense that I can tell just how they word a question or what idea(s) they provide and what sort of information comes with the initial articulation of the idea whether their process is trustworthy.

Sometimes on forums I will push for other reasons. (for example, I'll think an idea is completely absurd but feel like it's worth highlighting it, to clarify that, so I'll ask a pointed question; IRL, I might have just completely dismissed the idea without even mentioning anything.)

If it's someone who seems cogent enough and I can tell they're thoughtful, I'll ask questions about it to find out more information. Sometimes the questions are broad.

Sometimes they're more pointed, if I have some notable "weak spots" in mind with their comment and want to see how they dealt with them.
If I ask an "obvious weak spot" question and their answer shows they have dismissed the weak spot without justification or haven't even bothered to think about it, I mentally downgrade my estimation of their thinking style... no t a personal thing, I'm just flagging the "potential soundness" of their ideas and will adjust again if they show more thought later.

as far as NTs vs other types?

I expect more from NTs in terms of hard logic ... not because they might be better but because they often CLAIM to be and ride on their laurels. So I'm going to expect it from them and be more rigorous in how I judge their comments. i hate it when people play the snooty NT card, especially when I think their thinking is shoddy, and I'm going to hold them to their own standards.

Other types sometimes have other broad priorities and I try to read their comments in light of those, rather than just trying to dissect the "pure logical integrity" of their comments all the time.

I just feel like I'm constantly proving myself with some of the NTs in my life, am I oversensitive?

It depends partly on how the NTs in your life behave.

I guess as case in point: This is one of those questions, where I am like, how can I possibly answer this in the way it is phrased? Logically, the question makes no sense. You didn't provide enough information for anyone to know if you are being oversensitive.

therefore I shift gears and see it as a statement of how you feel in a particular relationship, and I read it as information rather than as a real question, even if you phrased it that way. And you do go on to say:

Part of me is defensive about it, where I expect less of a battle...based on my history with the particular person, does my history of giving good insight, or presenting an interesting idea, or being more perceptive, not get factored into the present? Is it a jumbled mess, where I'm unaware of ideas I've had that have been rejected by the NT, so I'm put in this strange camp that some percentage of my ideas that are good determine my standing with these individual NT persons?

...where it sounds like you are expressing discontent that your past intelligence is not getting factored into your current relationship with this person and that you feel on some level this is unfair...

[InaF3157]

I don't think anyone gets a pass; at least I always need a reason. It doesn't matter that someone has the authority/standing that should inspire confidence; they still have to start from scratch. However, you can open yourself up to enhanced scrutiny if you have been tested and found wanting before. For example, a college friend of mine (NF, too) had the habit of generalizing from her personal experience, making gigantic leaps of logic and otherwise talking out of her ass. I was aware of this, so I developed a habit of asking how she reached a particular conclusion - show your work, so to speak - which enraged her greatly, but the alternative was to take everything she said with a huge grain of salt. It turns out she was right a good deal, but I could not trust her on her hunch alone, partly because she was wrong in a not insignificant no. of cases.

[Samuel De Mazarin]

Just do it the way a child would... keep asking "But why?"... if you don't want to sound ridiculous by responding to every answer with a why, rephrase the "why" in some other, more discreet form.

It's as simple as that.

[Little Linguist]

Originally Posted by chatoyer

(I'm trying to figure out if this is my NF-hypersensitive perception or not......)

Is it common for you guys to test everyone's ideas constantly? Do you do it more with non-NTs or do NTs get more of a pass? Is it a compliment? Is it an insult? Is it neutral? Do you ever get to a point with a person that you accept their ideas & insights without so much battle, scrutiny, skepticism?

I just feel like I'm constantly proving myself with some of the NTs in my life, am I oversensitive? Part of me is defensive about it, where I expect less of a battle...based on my history with the particular person, does my history of giving good insight, or presenting an interesting idea, or being more perceptive, not get factored into the present? Is it a jumbled mess, where I'm unaware of ideas I've had that have been rejected by the NT, so I'm put in this strange camp that some percentage of my ideas that are good determine my standing with these individual NT persons?

I'm an NF, and I do it constantly!!!!

Are you sure it's an NT thing? Maybe just an N thing? Not sure???

[Little Linguist]

Originally Posted by Samuel De Mazarin

Just do it the way a child would... keep asking "But why?"... if you don't want to sound ridiculous by responding to every answer with a why, rephrase the "why" in some other, more discreet form.

It's as simple as that.

Hehehehe, I do this *all* the time!!!! My questions differ depending on the audience (sophisication, intelligence, etc.) and the mood (intellectual, jovial, antagonistic, etc.)

"Could you please explain your concept in more depth?"

"I'm not quite sure I understand. Could you rephrase your statement?"

"What justification do you have for making such a claim?!?!?"

"What do you think the results will be from your experiment?"

"WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?!?!?!?!" (<---Okay, for one of my "f" moments)

"What consequences do you think your ideas/beliefs will have?!"

"What brought you to this conclusion?"

"Do you think you may have been a bit too hasty?"

"Please explain your reasoning."

"I'm afraid I don't see your point."

"WHY?!?!?!?!?"

"What rationale have you used to arrive at this point?!"

"Have you performed a cost-benefit analysis to arrive at this answer?"

"Have you really thought this through? I think you need to re-work this."

"Let's try looking for the underlying causes."

And if someone is too out there, I will just dismiss him as a complete idiot. But if we have something to work with, I find challenging arguments quite engaging.

Do you NTs agree???

[booyalab]

Originally Posted by chatoyer

Is it common for you guys to test everyone's ideas constantly?

I think it's pretty common for me.

Do you do it more with non-NTs or do NTs get more of a pass? Is it a compliment? Is it an insult? Is it neutral?

When I criticize an idea, I'm not taking the person behind the idea into account at all. I tend to assume that they are most interested in the workability of the idea, like I would be. It's hard for me to conceive why someone would have a personal attachment to their idea just because they thought of it. So I actually think I'm helping. Plus, brainstorming is fun.

Do you ever get to a point with a person that you accept their ideas & insights without so much battle, scrutiny, skepticism?

Maybe if it turned into a "battle" each time, I would keep my thoughts to myself. But I wouldn't like it very much. If anything, the closer I get to someone, the more I care more that they achieve success in their endeavors. So why would I act more apathetic?

Originally Posted by chatoyer

I just feel like I'm constantly proving myself with some of the NTs in my life, am I oversensitive? Part of me is defensive about it, where I expect less of a battle...based on my history with the particular person, does my history of giving good insight, or presenting an interesting idea, or being more perceptive, not get factored into the present? Is it a jumbled mess, where I'm unaware of ideas I've had that have been rejected by the NT, so I'm put in this strange camp that some percentage of my ideas that are good determine my standing with these individual NT persons?

If you would rather have unquestioning praise than objective feedback when you share an idea, then maybe you shouldn't share your ideas with NTs.

[LucrativeSid]

Originally Posted by chatoyer

(I'm trying to figure out if this is my NF-hypersensitive perception or not......)

Is it common for you guys to test everyone's ideas constantly? Do you do it more with non-NTs or do NTs get more of a pass? Is it a compliment? Is it an insult? Is it neutral? Do you ever get to a point with a person that you accept their ideas & insights without so much battle, scrutiny, skepticism?

I just feel like I'm constantly proving myself with some of the NTs in my life, am I oversensitive? Part of me is defensive about it, where I expect less of a battle...based on my history with the particular person, does my history of giving good insight, or presenting an interesting idea, or being more perceptive, not get factored into the present? Is it a jumbled mess, where I'm unaware of ideas I've had that have been rejected by the NT, so I'm put in this strange camp that some percentage of my ideas that are good determine my standing with these individual NT persons?

I hope my answers are accurate enough, because this is not something I'm very conscious about doing, but I know that I do.

I rarely just let something pass unchallenged unless I've already thought about it and think it makes complete sense. I will only ignore you if I don't care about you, so if I like you, then the challenge is a good sign. And one thing I've noticed a lot is that I think I'm being objective, while the other person takes it as a personal attack. In my own eyes, I'm just doing what is necessary for clarity. There's probably certain things you could say to get them to shut up, and certain things you could say that would cause them to push harder.

Why are you sharing the ideas in the first place? Usually when I do I expect a challenge, and I admit, I'm quite turned on by a challenge. My way of thinking has always been to battle ideas until there is a winner and a loser, at which point the loser adopts what he has learned. Me, and someone who thinks like me, wouldn't be affected emotionally by it, even if we lost the battle. We'd be happy with the results. It's a very direct and aggressive knowledge seeking behavior, and sometimes the more sensitive folks cannot stand it. Sometimes if I have to change my behavior, and spend time thinking about how not to offend the person I'm debating an idea with, then I often lose interest all together. It's too much work. But it can be done if the person is important enough. The last thing I want to do is hurt someone.

[Little Linguist]

Originally Posted by LucrativeSid

I hope my answers are accurate enough, because this is not something I'm very conscious about doing, but I know that I do.

I rarely just let something pass unchallenged unless I've already thought about it and think it makes complete sense. I will only ignore you if I don't care about you, so if I like you, then the challenge is a good sign. And one thing I've noticed a lot is that I think I'm being objective, while the other person takes it as a personal attack. In my own eyes, I'm just doing what is necessary for clarity. There's probably certain things you could say to get them to shut up, and certain things you could say that would cause them to push harder.

Why are you sharing the ideas in the first place? Usually when I do I expect a challenge, and I admit, I'm quite turned on by a challenge. My way of thinking has always been to battle ideas until there is a winner and a loser, at which point the loser adopts what he has learned. Me, and someone who thinks like me, wouldn't be affected emotionally by it, even if we lost the battle. We'd be happy with the results. It's a very direct and aggressive knowledge seeking behavior, and sometimes the more sensitive folks cannot stand it.

Yeah, I would pretty much agree with this. (Sorry, I know I'm not an NT, but seeing as an NF wrote the first post, I thought it would be useful to see that not only NTs think like this).

[BlackOp]

I approach it more like the "Pinball Wizard"...play by sense of smell.