[INTJ] Explain to me how INTJ's can do this

[The Great One]

So I've noticed that the way INTJ's learn is so strange. It seems that when most people learn a new concept, they will learn one aspect of a concept, then another, and then another, until they finally grasp everything fully. This seems to be the normal way to learn. However, it seems that INTJ's have a very different way of learning. INTJ's tend to grasp nothing or absolutely everything about a concept, with very little room in-between. In other words, INTJ's will understand absolutely nothing about a concept for a while, and then they have this big, "EUREKA!" moment. When this happens, suddenly they're level of understanding goes from about 0 to 10 in what seems like only a matter of seconds. How on earth does this work?

[MENTION=10757]Nicodemus[/MENTION] [MENTION=7254]Wind-Up Rex[/MENTION]
[MENTION=8413]Zarathustra[/MENTION]

You folks might find this thread interesting.

 

[RaptorWizard]

"INTJs do not deal with things in a logical way, going into the intellectual process of elucidation. They just catch an intuition, going round and round amplifying it, so that in the end we get a complete picture, but by intuitive means, not by logical means." - C.G. Jung, 1937

 

[The Great One]

"INTJs do not deal with things in a logical way, going into the intellectual process of elucidation. They just catch an intuition, going round and round amplifying it, so that in the end we get a complete picture, but by intuitive means, not by logical means." - C.G. Jung, 1937

Can you go into more detail there buddy?

 

[RaptorWizard]

Can you go into more detail there buddy?

"But instinct is something which transcends knowledge. We have, undoubtedly, certain finer fibers that enable us to perceive truths when logical deduction, or any other willful effort of the brain, is futile. Back in the deep recesses of the brain was the solution, but I could net yet give it outward expression. As I uttered these inspiring words the idea came like a flash of lightning and in an instant the truth was revealed. A thousand secrets of nature which I might have stumbled upon accidentally, I would have given for that one which I had wrested from her against all odds and at the peril of my existence. The gift of mental power comes from God, Divine Being, and if we concentrate our minds on that truth, we become in tune with this great power." ~ Nikola Tesla (INTJ)

 

[ndovjtjcaqidthi]

Why do you think it's only INTJs who do this?

 

[chubber]

So I've noticed that the way INTJ's learn is so strange. It seems that when most people learn a new concept, they will learn one aspect of a concept, then another, and then another, until they finally grasp everything fully. This seems to be the normal way to learn. However, it seems that INTJ's have a very different way of learning. INTJ's tend to grasp nothing or absolutely everything about a concept, with very little room in-between. In other words, INTJ's will understand absolutely nothing about a concept for a while, and then they have this big, "EUREKA!" moment. When this happens, suddenly they're level of understanding goes from about 0 to 10 in what seems like only a matter of seconds. How on earth does this work?

[MENTION=10757]Nicodemus[/MENTION] [MENTION=7254]Wind-Up Rex[/MENTION]
[MENTION=8413]Zarathustra[/MENTION]

You folks might find this thread interesting.

I tend to think that INTJs are visual spatial learners instead of the normal auditory-sequential learner. It is so in my case.

If you have a look at how visual spatial learners work, you might see how they approach a subject, because we work top down, instead of bottom up... (quick way to sum it up).

Hope that helps.

 

[highlander]

I don't know if we learn "concepts" very well per se. I think we take in a lot of pieces of information and there is this process that goes on inside our heads and then the concept occurs to us. People might explain a concept to us but it's just a data point - raw information - until the perception is formed which internalizes it. So it is kind of like a personal concept.

Not sure if that makes sense...

 

[Coriolis]

I cannot understand concepts piecemeal, but only in their entirety. Books and course notes, on the other hand, are generally written in a linear fashion, showing you a series of pieces that make up the concept. What this means is that I will read or hear about all these pieces, not really understanding any one of them, until we get to the end and I can see how they all fit together. After reviewing it all, they will snap into place like the pieces of a puzzle, and I will have a top-down understanding of the topic that will never leave me.

 

[Evo]

Why do you think it's only INTJs who do this?

It's not lol

INFJ's, ENFJ's, INTJ's, and ENTJ's do this...

Ni needs the whole picture to do things.

I learn very much the way Coriolis describes.

 

[chubber]

It's not lol

INFJ's, ENFJ's, INTJ's, and ENTJ's do this...

Ni needs the whole picture to do things.

I learn very much the way Coriolis describes.

http://www.gifteddevelopment.com/Visual_Spatial_Learner/vsl.htm

AUDITORY-SEQUENTIAL------------------------------------VISUAL-SPATIAL

• Thinks primarily in words ------------------------------- Thinks primarily in pictures
• Has auditory strengths ---------------------------------Has visual strengths
• Relates well to time ------------------------------------Relates well to space
• Is a step-by-step learner ------------------------------ Is a whole-part learner
• Learns by trial and error---------------------------------Learns concepts all at once
• Progresses sequentially from easy to difficult material-----Learns complex concepts easily; struggles with easy skills
• Is an analytical thinker--------------------------------- Is a good synthesizer
• Attends well to details----------------------------------Sees the big picture; may miss details
• Follows oral directions well------------------------------Reads maps well
• Does well at arithmetic----------------------------------Is better at math reasoning than computation
• Learns phonics easily------------------------------------Learns whole words easily
• Can sound out spelling words----------------------------Must visualize words to spell them
• Can write quickly and neatly ----------------------------Prefers keyboarding to writing
• Is well-organized--------------------------------------- Creates unique methods of organization
• Can show steps of work easily---------------------------Arrives at correct solutions intuitively
• Excels at rote memorization----------------------------- Learns best by seeing relationships
• Has good auditory short-term memory------------------- Has good long-term visual memory
• May need some repetition to reinforce learning----------- Learns concepts permanently; is turned off by drill and repetition
• Learns well from instruction----------------------------- Develops own methods of problem solving
• Learns in spite of emotional reactions------------------- Is very sensitive to teachers’ attitudes
• Is comfortable with one right answer--------------------Generates unusual solutions to problems
• Develops fairly evenly---------------------------------- Develops quite asynchronously
• Usually maintains high grades ---------------------------May have very uneven grades
• Enjoys algebra and chemistry--------------------------- Enjoys geometry and physics
• Learns languages in class-------------------------------Masters other languages through immersion
• Is academically talented--------------------------------Is creatively, mechanically, emotionally, or technologically gifted
• Is an early bloomer-------------------------------------Is a late bloomer

[MENTION=14015]Inari Love[/MENTION] do you relate to the visual spatial learner?

 

[FDG]

I'm similar in this respect, even if I'm ENTJ. However, if required, I can operate with a partial picture over the short-term and/or when the task is simple and repetitive.

(I'm somewhere like 30% auditory, 70% spatial in that "split")

 

[Evo]

http://www.gifteddevelopment.com/Visual_Spatial_Learner/vsl.htm

AUDITORY-SEQUENTIAL------------------------------------VISUAL-SPATIAL

• Thinks primarily in words ------------------------------- Thinks primarily in pictures
• Has auditory strengths ---------------------------------Has visual strengths
• Relates well to time ------------------------------------Relates well to space
• Is a step-by-step learner ------------------------------ Is a whole-part learner
• Learns by trial and error---------------------------------Learns concepts all at once
• Progresses sequentially from easy to difficult material-----Learns complex concepts easily; struggles with easy skills
• Is an analytical thinker--------------------------------- Is a good synthesizer
• Attends well to details-------------------------------Sees the big picture; may miss details
• Follows oral directions well------------------------------Reads maps well
• Does well at arithmetic----------------------------------Is better at math reasoning than computation
  
• Learns phonics easily------------------------------------Learns whole words easily
• Can sound out spelling words----------------------------Must visualize words to spell them
• Can write quickly and neatly ----------------------------Prefers keyboarding to writing
• Is well-organized--------------------------------------- Creates unique methods of organization
• Can show steps of work easily---------------------------Arrives at correct solutions intuitively
• Excels at rote memorization----------------------------- Learns best by seeing relationships
• Has good auditory short-term memory------------------- Has good long-term visual memory
• May need some repetition to reinforce learning----------- Learns concepts permanently; is turned off by drill and repetition
• Learns well from instruction----------------------------- Develops own methods of problem solving
• Learns in spite of emotional reactions------------------- Is very sensitive to teachers’ attitudes
• Is comfortable with one right answer--------------------Generates unusual solutions to problems
• Develops fairly evenly---------------------------------- Develops quite asynchronously
• Usually maintains high grades ---------------------------May have very uneven grades
• Enjoys algebra and chemistry--------------------------- Enjoys geometry and physics
• Learns languages in class-------------------------------Masters other languages through immersion
• Is academically talented--------------------------------Is creatively, mechanically, or technologically gifted
• Is an early bloomer-------------------------------------Is a late bloomer

[MENTION=14015]Inari Love[/MENTION] do you relate to the visual spatial learner?

YES!

I bolded everything that's me. I can't tell the difference in the ones that aren't at all. I think it's fair to say I relate lol.

Edit: I can do both sides....I'm just much more efficient with the spatial/visual

The one that is in bold and underline is the one that makes me come off as incompetent. I hate it.


I wish teachers could have presented things in this fashion when I was in school

This is so awesome by the way. I'm thrilled. Thanks for linking that.




Would you personally speculate that these ways of learning would be related to functions in any way?

 

[ndovjtjcaqidthi]

[MENTION=20044]chubber[/MENTION], thanks for posting that.

 

[chubber]

YES!

I bolded everything that's me. I can't tell the difference in the ones that aren't at all. I think it's fair to say I relate lol.

Edit: I can do both sides....I'm just much more efficient with the spatial/visual

The one that is in bold and underline is the one that makes me come off as incompetent. I hate it.


I wish teachers could have presented things in this fashion when I was in school

This is so awesome by the way. I'm thrilled. Thanks for linking that.




Would you personally speculate that these ways of learning would be related to functions in any way?

Yeah, same here, I was sensitive to the way the teacher presented the material. If I (sensitive) didn't like the teacher I would switch subjects.
Especially the complex problems relates to INTJs so well, because they prefer it in general. I struggle with normal considered "easy skills".

Which makes me feel at odds with everyone. Nobody understands me because one minute I seem super intelligent, the next moment I seem super unintelligent.

I think you are on to something with that Ni and also, I have been mulling over the idea, that it relates to why INTJs pull out information out of thin air. If you look at that cartoon. Because it doesn't seem related or linked, like the rest would link it.

I'm not sure what teaching style teachers are taught themselves, but I would like to speculate that Ni or INTJ in general makes good teachers. [MENTION=15371]RaptorWizard[/MENTION]

 

[Evo]

Yeah, same here, I was sensitive to the way the teacher presented the material. If I (sensitive) didn't like the teacher I would switch subjects.
Especially the complex problems relates to INTJs so well, because they prefer it in general. I struggle with normal considered "easy skills".

Which makes me feel at odds with everyone. Nobody understands me because one minute I seem super intelligent, the next moment I seem super unintelligent.

I think you are on to something with that Ni and also, I have been mulling over the idea, that it relates to why INTJs pull out information out of thin air. If you look at that cartoon. Because it doesn't seem related or linked, like the rest would link it.

I'm not sure what teaching style teachers are taught themselves, but I would like to speculate that Ni or INTJ in general makes good teachers. [MENTION=15371]RaptorWizard[/MENTION]

Yea. I think they would be good teachers cause once they learn the ins and outs of something, they really know it. Especially coupled with Te, cause then Te can break down the knowledge so that it's easily re-learnable/tangible.


Edit: Maybe except for the large group interaction part...

Probably better one on one teaching.

 

[Amargith]

Ehm..I'm no NJ, but...I work this way as well

Visual spatial for me, for the most part, though my auditory memory works really well when listening to a professor.

Also, I learn in 3 ways:

- short term memory abuse: I have a photographic memory and as long as I sort of understand the subject, I can memories entire pages by taking a mental picture, causing me to go ' skip to page 216, write down definition of whatever t is they're asking for verbatim'. I lose that info within two days though and there is a limit to how much I can absorb that way.

- The way that Ni-users here described, though I need more than one read. I get too 'close' to the book, meaning I need to take a step back, review how the chapters were structured to gain a full oversight of the subject, but that only takes me 10 minutes after reading the book. But it is something I actively have to do, otherwise that information starts getting mashed together, and twisted, swirling around in my head without proper categorisation. I ...hesistate to use that one book as the end all on that subject however, though I can do it. it doesn't feel comfortable as I feel I'm lacking control groups and peer-testing, if that make sense
But, for the most part, despite its limitations, it gets me where I need to be and gives me enough mastery to do what I need to do with that subject.

- My ...natural way? I read a bunch of books, without reviewing how the authors structured them. Did this with wicca - bought 10 beginner guides to get as many povs as possible on the subject, so I can freely associate and cherry pick how the subject will work for *me*, and the repetition helps me discover the many ways I can use that same information from different angles. It is like standing in the same spot, and take 8 different pics in the 8 different directions, so you get a full idea of what that spot looks like. I feel most safe when doing this, feeling like I can do anything with the material and extrapolate on what i know with educated guesses. It also takes the longest, unfortunately.

 

[chubber]

Ehm..I'm no NJ, but...I work this way as well

Visual spatial for me, for the most part, though my auditory memory works really well when listening to a professor.

Also, I learn in 3 ways:

- short term memory abuse: I have a photographic memory and as long as I sort of understand the subject, I can memories entire pages by taking a mental picture, causing me to go ' skip to page 216, write down definition of whatever t is they're asking for verbatim'. I lose that info within two days though and there is a limit to how much I can absorb that way.

- The way that Ni-users here described, though I need more than one read. I get too 'close' to the book, meaning I need to take a step back, review how the chapters were structured to gain a full oversight of the subject, but that only takes me 10 minutes after reading the book. But it is something I actively have to do, otherwise that information starts getting mashed together, and twisted, swirling around in my head without proper categorisation. I ...hesistate to use that one book as the end all on that subject however, though I can do it. it doesn't feel comfortable as I feel I'm lacking control groups and peer-testing, if that make sense
But, for the most part, despite its limitations, it gets me where I need to be and gives me enough mastery to do what I need to do with that subject.

- My ...natural way? I read a bunch of books, without reviewing how the authors structured them. Did this with wicca - bought 10 beginner guides to get as many povs as possible on the subject, so I can freely associate and cherry pick how the subject will work for *me*, and the repetition helps me discover the many ways I can use that same information from different angles. It is like standing in the same spot, and take 8 different pics in the 8 different directions, so you get a full idea of what that spot looks like. I feel most safe when doing this, feeling like I can do anything with the material and extrapolate on what i know with educated guesses. It also takes the longest, unfortunately.

How do you think your split is, would it be similar to what [MENTION=857]FDG[/MENTION] mentioned?

 

[Amargith]

How do you think your split is, would it be similar to what [MENTION=857]FDG[/MENTION] mentioned?

Let's see...


UDITORY-SEQUENTIAL------------------------------------VISUAL-SPATIAL
Thinks primarily in words ------------------------------- Thinks primarily in pictures
Has auditory strengths ---------------------------------Has visual strengths
Relates well to time ------------------------------------Relates well to space
Is a step-by-step learner ------------------------------ Is a whole-part learner
Learns by trial and error---------------------------------Learns concepts all at once
Progresses sequentially from easy to difficult material-----Learns complex concepts easily; struggles with easy skills
Is an analytical thinker--------------------------------- Is a good synthesizer
Attends well to details-------------------------------Sees the big picture; may miss details
Follows oral directions well------------------------------Reads maps well
Does well at arithmetic----------------------------------Is better at math reasoning than computation
Learns phonics easily------------------------------------Learns whole words easily
Can sound out spelling words----------------------------Must visualize words to spell them
Can write quickly and neatly ----------------------------Prefers keyboarding to writing
Is well-organized--------------------------------------- Creates unique methods of organization
Can show steps of work easily---------------------------Arrives at correct solutions intuitively
Excels at rote memorization----------------------------- Learns best by seeing relationships
Has good auditory short-term memory------------------- Has good long-term visual memory
May need some repetition to reinforce learning----------- Learns concepts permanently; is turned off by drill and repetition
Learns well from instruction----------------------------- Develops own methods of problem solving
Learns in spite of emotional reactions------------------- Is very sensitive to teachers’ attitudes
Is comfortable with one right answer--------------------Generates unusual solutions to problems
Develops fairly evenly---------------------------------- Develops quite asynchronously
Usually maintains high grades ---------------------------May have very uneven grades
Enjoys algebra and chemistry--------------------------- Enjoys geometry and physics
Learns languages in class-------------------------------Masters other languages through immersion
Is academically talented--------------------------------Is creatively, mechanically, or technologically gifted
Is an early bloomer-------------------------------------Is a late bloomer

...20/80?

God, I suddenly realise that all the shit I hated being bad at in school, coz it was supposed to be so easy, is in that left column

 

[five sounds]

Let's see...


UDITORY-SEQUENTIAL------------------------------------VISUAL-SPATIAL
Thinks primarily in words ------------------------------- Thinks primarily in pictures
Has auditory strengths ---------------------------------Has visual strengths
Relates well to time ------------------------------------Relates well to space
Is a step-by-step learner ------------------------------ Is a whole-part learner
Learns by trial and error---------------------------------Learns concepts all at once
Progresses sequentially from easy to difficult material-----Learns complex concepts easily; struggles with easy skills
Is an analytical thinker--------------------------------- Is a good synthesizer
Attends well to details-------------------------------Sees the big picture; may miss details
Follows oral directions well------------------------------Reads maps well
Does well at arithmetic----------------------------------Is better at math reasoning than computation
Learns phonics easily------------------------------------Learns whole words easily
Can sound out spelling words----------------------------Must visualize words to spell them
Can write quickly and neatly ----------------------------Prefers keyboarding to writing
Is well-organized--------------------------------------- Creates unique methods of organization
Can show steps of work easily---------------------------Arrives at correct solutions intuitively
Excels at rote memorization----------------------------- Learns best by seeing relationships
Has good auditory short-term memory------------------- Has good long-term visual memory
May need some repetition to reinforce learning----------- Learns concepts permanently; is turned off by drill and repetition
Learns well from instruction----------------------------- Develops own methods of problem solving
Learns in spite of emotional reactions------------------- Is very sensitive to teachers’ attitudes
Is comfortable with one right answer--------------------Generates unusual solutions to problems
Develops fairly evenly---------------------------------- Develops quite asynchronously
Usually maintains high grades ---------------------------May have very uneven grades
Enjoys algebra and chemistry--------------------------- Enjoys geometry and physics
Learns languages in class-------------------------------Masters other languages through immersion
Is academically talented--------------------------------Is creatively, mechanically, or technologically gifted
Is an early bloomer-------------------------------------Is a late bloomer

...20/80?

God, I suddenly realise that all the shit I hated being bad at in school, coz it was supposed to be so easy, is in that left column

I was thinking it was a N thing. I learn this way too.
N=big picture
S=details
more or less. No?

 

[The Great One]

I don't know if we learn "concepts" very well per se. I think we take in a lot of pieces of information and there is this process that goes on inside our heads and then the concept occurs to us. People might explain a concept to us but it's just a data point - raw information - until the perception is formed which internalizes it. So it is kind of like a personal concept.

Not sure if that makes sense...

Yeah, this is probably the best explanation that I've heard so far. Also, it fascinates me how unkinesthetically that many Ni users learn. For instance, I've known many an Ni user who could literally read a book on something like Golf per se, and then really play golf in real life like a pro. All of this despite the fact that they never even picked up a club in real life. This is absolutely fascinating to me.

I cannot understand concepts piecemeal, but only in their entirety. Books and course notes, on the other hand, are generally written in a linear fashion, showing you a series of pieces that make up the concept. What this means is that I will read or hear about all these pieces, not really understanding any one of them, until we get to the end and I can see how they all fit together. After reviewing it all, they will snap into place like the pieces of a puzzle, and I will have a top-down understanding of the topic that will never leave me.

So in other words, you are almost completely lost in a college course until you get to the end, in which time you start making A's? How does that work?

It's not lol

INFJ's, ENFJ's, INTJ's, and ENTJ's do this...

Ni needs the whole picture to do things.

I learn very much the way Coriolis describes.

Yeah, I associate this with Ni as well.