INTP, intelligence, laziness, and the J rebellion

[Cypocalypse]

I'm just playing out with some ideas in my head. I just wanna know other people's thought on this.

For one, does anyone here think that the perception of INTPs' laziness is overblown because of their perceived intelligence, and they are, expected to be achievers like TJs? It's like....INTPs can't afford to get lazy because its a waste of "intelligence". I don't see any other P variants to be as pressured, achievement-wise, as much as the INTP.

I have a gay ESFP friend. Not really one of the best students around when he was my classmate back then. He just like to draw women and clothing when he was inside the class (which then makes me question if INTPs are realistically or comparatively lazy, because they're always seemed to be smacked in the TJ world). He eventually took up advertising (a forte of people attuned to the arts) in college and is now working in that field. I don't see his life to be very organized (much like what you would expect from a P), and he's having the regular troubles, like money management and whatnot. But among my friends, he's among the one that I can really say that's generally realistically happy. And more importantly, he's not that much pressured to achieve, or so i think.

He's among my friends who taught me the virtue of living by the present (biggest advice, he gave me, ever), and while the idea may seem silly to the TJ type, it got me thinking. He is the happy one. And I would probably want it for myself. That time, I don't know yet anything about MBTI to know my difference from the other archetypes of perceived intellect (e.g., xNTJ, xSTJ). It's like, it would be a form of false humility to say that I'm not intelligent in any way, but I don't consider myself to be very much like them either.

________________

My dad is an aloof ISTJ and mom is an ESFJ teacher. Mom pressured me too much under the conventional form of learning. Mom wanted me to be an INTJ/ISTJ bookworm or something, but she never saw me studying with the ethical level of a stereotypical bookworm. Though I would consider now that back then, my Ne/Ti axis would help me get the needed understanding of lessons, which can help me get good grades, in my mom's opinion, I would have always achieved better if I wasn't as "lazy." What I hardly realized back then was...Si /Te was slowly creating a strain on my character and I wouldn't be able to anticipate my eventual implosion until much later, in my later years in college. I just....lost motivation. At that time, I was in my early 20s. I'm now 26. Understanding of MBTI just happened a few months ago.

Now, I can say that, I can both picture out the STJ/NTJ life because my life was structured to live in that, and I can also picture out the NTP life because it's probably what's innate in me and now, I know the basics to fully appreciate and embrace it.

_________________

Looking back at my earlier coerced TJ life, I would think that TJ is a life of putting a lot of sacrifices in the present in the hopes of a future vindication. What most Js overlook is that, the future vindication is only temporal, and the sacrifices continue.

It's like work. You work for a job promotion, in the hopes of a better future compensation. Then you get promoted, and then your workload adjusts accordingly (offsetting the benefits of a higher salary). It gets heavier. And then you work for another sort of a job promotion. And then the cycle continues. Vindications are temporal and incremental, and the sacrifices are ongoing.

I now live independently from my parents, and still, I would often get that scrutiny on why I don't handle money as efficiently as they want me to, or how much I lack consideration of the future. I would like to say to them that they're already getting old and their quest for the future vindication is still ongoing. They're still as anxious before as they were back then. So where's the actual point of vindication here? Did that actually happen? What is "the future" when they're not getting younger? Shouldn't they, retrospect?

_________________

I guess that, to the young INTPs here who view life as a journey instead of a destination, they already have an idea that the notion of a future vindication that the Js were thinking is a some sort of a delusion that they've created, to keep them going in the plight of their current sacrifices. They eventually achieve something, until they realize that they get old enough and starts to question if that point of vindication ever happened or will happen, at all.

(Most of you would probably notice that this thread seems to be a dichotomy of an INTP quarter life crisis, narrating the implications of what would be a mid-life crisis for some people).

Looking back at what my gay friend told me--he's right partially. He's right in the sense that considerations about the present should be balanced with the considerations of the future. Balance is what an INTP wants to achieve in the first place. With all these talks about the bigger picture and whatnot, and the ultimate goal of understanding the essence of everything, the INTP is at the center of world he so wishes to understand, with nothing to be overlooked, minimizing impartiality, and forging possibly the strongest sense of individuality among the other MBTI archetypes.

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I was thinking that the SJ culture that I was raised has driven me to be the one in the family that understands, even if it may dampen my future productivity. And as an INTP, I take pride in understanding what was overlooked by others who were too busy to have a time to understand, at all. Hence the burden of understanding was rested on my shoulder. And being the person who pursues understanding way beyond others, the need to be strong in the inner world is there, because INTPs are misunderstood outside. The one that can understand, is the one that should be tolerant. INTPs are recipients of strong TJ accusations, and we have to make sure that our sense of self is strong enough to take them.

[Jennifer]

With the forum down all the time, I don't feel like investing time in a complex answer.

I'll say that I really admire my ESFP son, who is like your ESFP friend. Pretty ambitious in regards to his personal desires at the time (and loves to draw too )... and despite not being great at long-range goals or managing his money, I am betting he will be the happiest of all of my children as an adult -- because he does what he loves, doesn't do what he doesn't love, and doesn't beat himself up for failing to meet some external goal.

I do think INTPs have their arms twisted in part by the TJ society that says, "production" or "finishing a task" is the part that has value. INTPs naturally like to understand and explore. They're interested in the information, not necessarily using it to achieve a definable end. If they can't find a way to get paid directly for this sort of activity, then they have to learn how to be finishers and concluders in order to stay afloat, curbing their own natural tendencies. if their self-worth is based on their ability to do this, they could end up being very hard on themselves or simply cynical/bitter towards the world for its unfairness.

It's okay to not live a life with definable achievements, if you can allow yourself to enjoy the journey.

[Haphazard]

The same thing seems to have happened to my poor INTP brother...

I'm apparently the 'good' child because I'm naturally industrious, and he's, well, not. I love him to death and we've never really had any sibling rivalry between us (thank GOD), just the perceived differences between me and him instilled in our parents. I'm fine with whatever he does, as long as he doesn't eventually end up crying to me for financial help. He has a girlfriend and is in college, and he seems quite content. And that's what's important, right?

Call it childish idealism combined with TJ tendencies, but I have a plan for what I'm doing when I grow up. I'm pledged to turn my passions into my fortune, and I don't care what people say about being fine with not enjoying their jobs. To hell with them! I'm set on enjoying myself and my work. I'm going to do what I like to do, and if that means some extra work now, so be it.

Put simply, I want it all. And I plan to get it all, too. And there's nothing wrong with that, either.

[Haphazard]

After rereading your post -- I think you're mostly complaining about the SJ tendency to prepare for something that never comes. Of course, they prepare for bad things that no one wants to come, so preparation is handy when that sort of stuff happens but it leads to a lot of sacrifices in the present.

NTJs expect their plans to come to fruition. Their manner of thinking is just more acceptable to society than the NTP manner of thinking because their thinking yields more acceptable results to the general populace.

I wouldn't call NTJs 'lazy,' but flighty and capricious may be more like it. They will start on a project and will often decide that they don't see any future in it -- so they quit and move onto something that holds more promise. If they manage to bring the project to fruition, they may sit and admire it for a moment, and then bounce onto the next one because they've already gotten bored. They've finished, so why work on it anymore? Time for something new!

They may 'achieve' in the SJ sense of the word, but achievement is fleeting. They want to see their ideas put to work because that's what makes them happy, but once the idea has worked, they want to do something different. Their attention span only reaches as far as the completion of the project -- no further, no shorter.

For some reason this attention deficit is reinforced by society. INTPs have the amazing power of concentration, NTJs definitely do not. You may find joy in understanding, NTJs find joy in implementing. Both have their purpose; one is appreciated, and one isn't, but I don't really think that either is understood.

[htb]

Yes, INTPs are lazy.

Get back to work, slacker!

[Athenian200]

Originally Posted by Haphazard

For some reason this attention deficit is reinforced by society. INTPs have the amazing power of concentration, NTJs definitely do not. You may find joy in understanding, NTJs find joy in implementing. Both have their purpose; one is appreciated, and one isn't, but I don't really think that either is understood.

Interesting idea. The "attention deficit" to which you refer could well be the SJ's introverted perception. J's seem organized because they focus until the end of implementing or doing something in particular, but after that point, they can easily get distracted or forget what motivated them to do it, and thus not notice when that motivation leaves, and just keep working towards completion for no reason except the desire to maintain an odd kind of "inertia" that J's like to maintain in their lives. It can even reach the point of just resisting anything that interferes with that "inertia," without reconsidering why they want to keep doing what they're doing, or why they want to achieve that particular thing.

In my case, I've actually sacrificed minor (but not major) opportunities because I didn't want to do anything new or in a different way if I didn't have to, just because that would require me to think about what I was doing rather than just sort of "zoning out" and repeating what I've always done without thinking about it.

[Badlands]

I wouldn't say that the efforts of SJs necessarily go to waste. They get their payoff for their past sacrifices, and then they're moving on to another "investment". They'll throw themselves at a goal, and once it's achieved, they want to achieve another one, and so on until death. I think the core of your issues with SJs is that they become happy through the pursuit of happiness, whereas Ps obtain happiness directly from the world around them.

The problem with INTPs around this is quite simply that to the average SJ, the differences between INTPs and IxTJs are so subtle as to be unnoticable. INTPs are different from just about every other P type in that they don't externally rebel from J society very often; while rebellious, they often just hold their attitudes in their opinions and actions, and not in the clothes they wear or the words they use. The average INTP thinks that what people see and hear on the outside doesn't change the message inside them. It doesn't help their case that unlike the INFP, which otherwise has similar tendencies, INTPs typically reserve their rebellious ideas and messages only for people they trust with them. If you're completely unaware of an INTP's inner world, they can seem pretty similar to INTJs or even ISTJs, the point being that a big reason SJs get on the INTP's case is because they subconsciously think they're some type of "closeted STJ".

Of course, another reason is because SJs can much more easily go through life not understanding the perspectives of the other personality types because of their almost majority over the US population. Quite simply, some SJs think all people have the same needs and wants as them deep inside, so those who act differently must have something wrong with them.

[Haphazard]

Originally Posted by Athenian200

Interesting idea. The "attention deficit" to which you refer could well be the SJ's introverted perception. J's seem organized because they focus until the end of implementing or doing something in particular, but after that point, they can easily get distracted or forget what motivated them to do it, and thus not notice when that motivation leaves, and just keep working towards completion for no reason except the desire to maintain an odd kind of "inertia" that J's like to maintain in their lives. It can even reach the point of just resisting anything that interferes with that "inertia," without reconsidering why they want to keep doing what they're doing, or why they want to achieve that particular thing.

In my case, I've actually sacrificed minor (but not major) opportunities because I didn't want to do anything new or in a different way if I didn't have to, just because that would require me to think about what I was doing rather than just sort of "zoning out" and repeating what I've always done without thinking about it.

I tend to immediately ignore new ways of doing things if I don't think they work as well as the old way. If they sound like they'll work better, however, I'll usually try them. Sometimes, though, the way that I believed was 'inefficient' catches on with everyone else and I'm forced to jump on the bandwagon late. *sigh*

I've heard that a lot of INTJs settle into 'schedules' to allow their minds to wander. They look like they're running like clockwork, but the pattern has no significance other than if they do it this way, they know they can finish doing what they're doing without thought so they can let their minds work on whatever interests them that day, whether it be a new movie, nuclear physics, carpeting, gas mileage efficiency, etc. More or less, it's an attempt to turn the entire physical routine into a 'shower moment,' for the same sort of revelations that people normally get when showering all throughout. Changing would require thought, thought that they don't want to dedicate to that (meaningless, to them) task.

There's little consideration to things that want to interfere with that inertia because they don't want to dedicate thought to changing it, because, damn it, they're busy doing other things! They believe, leave it, it works, and let me get back to my thoughts! There's definitely zoning out there, but it's zoning out from the physical world to the mental one. For NJs, I'm pretty sure that the physical world must be stable so they can 'play' in the mental one; SJs just want a stable physical world. This tends to make an NJ look organized when they view themselves as quite flighty.

[Jennifer]

Originally Posted by Haphazard

I've heard that a lot of INTJs settle into 'schedules' to allow their minds to wander. They look like they're running like clockwork, but the pattern has no significance other than if they do it this way, they know they can finish doing what they're doing without thought so they can let their minds work on whatever interests them that day, whether it be a new movie, nuclear physics, carpeting, gas mileage efficiency, etc. More or less, it's an attempt to turn the entire physical routine into a 'shower moment,' for the same sort of revelations that people normally get when showering all throughout. Changing would require thought, thought that they don't want to dedicate to that (meaningless, to them) task.

It's sort of funny, as I get older the more I'm starting to learn how to do this, for the very same reasons. For a long time, though, I just floated and thought I'd have enough energy to make things happen despite the outer disorg. So it sounds like you do it more instinctually.

There's little consideration to things that want to interfere with that inertia because they don't want to dedicate thought to changing it, because, damn it, they're busy doing other things! They believe, leave it, it works, and let me get back to my thoughts! There's definitely zoning out there, but it's zoning out from the physical world to the mental one. For NJs, I'm pretty sure that the physical world must be stable so they can 'play' in the mental one; SJs just want a stable physical world. This tends to make an NJ look organized when they view themselves as quite flighty.

You can keep talking about the contrast here, I find it very informative.

Externally, in a lot of ways, NJs and SJs look similar depending on their Je function. SJs I think have more consistency between external and internal, it helps to hear that external for the NJ isn't necessarily reflective of internal.

This also helps explain to me why I read ENxJ better than INxJ. (The extroverts are operating primarily in the visible world, so I'm getting a good read on them even if I don't quite grasp their secondary; the introverts only show me their secondary and i can't get to the core Ni, and the signals are clashing with the ISxJ patterns I've learned.)

[Xander]

You ever think that INTPs get it in the neck more often cause we keep correcting people and pointing out flaws? Thus instead of others expecting more of us it's more like "If you're so smart, you f-in do it then!!". As in, more us getting ourselves in that situation over us being placed in it.