how do you argue with an ENTJ?

[whatever]

I'm in an organization which has an abnormally high percentage of ENTJs, which is vaguely scary! This usually isn't a problem, but some of them have recently stepped over the line on an issue, and I, as the wise old bourbon drinking grandma on the porch of the organization, am expected to set them straight. Not cool.

How on earth does one argue a point with ENTJs? They seem so entirely convinced that they are more logical and correct than I am! I'd really appreciate some insight since I'm kind of dreading confronting them. I can play organization politics and threaten to air long buried skeletons with the best of them, but I'm kind of scared of large groups of people especially ENTJs.

Please help?

[PinkPiranha]

You'd think I'd know how, being best friends with one for 16 years, but I really have no way to argue with them without it becoming a lawyerly point-by-point ad infinitum. I have to employ the "Twin with The Mighty Defusing Power of the ENFP" on her. Always works. ALWAYS. She reduces their arguments to mere cinders. I still don't know how she does it. lol

You can borrow my Twin. She'll take down your whole office!

[cascadeco]

You don't.

Seriously, I'd like to know the answer. :-) In my experience, there's not much 'point' in it. Assuming they've thought out their opinion on a matter and aren't in the gathering-information stages, it's best to silently pretend to agree, or else the discussion will be endless. They'll need to have the last word anyway. Also, they're always right, and heaven forbid you disagree with them. :-)

Maybe I've just experienced a more stubborn one?

I'm not 'intimated' by them per se, but I guess I've learned it's best not to voluntarily state my opinion if it's in opposition to theirs. If they ask my viewpoint, I'd state what it is, but I have no debating/argumentative instincts in me, so I'll always let them have the last word, even if I completely disagree.

[PinkPiranha]

Originally Posted by cascademn

Maybe I've just experienced a more stubborn one?

NOPE! They're all like that, God love 'em!

[substitute]

Very calmly. And in stages. You have to think of it as a sort of war, in a way... just drop the odd bomb and wait for the full extent of its implications to sink in with him before you take him to the next stage. I've often set it as a goal to, over the course of a week, persuade one of my ENTJ's that he's not entirely correct about something.

If you're hoping to have a particular way of putting something that will make him respond straight away with "ah yes, I see you're right, well in that case we'll go with your suggestion", then you might as well bark at the moon. I mean, I can do that with my ENTJ's sometimes, but only because I've built up a lot of trust and worked hard at it for years with them.

Actually I'm not sure how I do it - I only know that I'm always the one sitting on his desk getting him to laugh and joke before he says "You know what? Fuck it, let's do it your way, it's probably better anyway", when everyone else is hiding in the filing cabinet...

Just don't go for an instant confrontation, whatever you do. There's my advice, coming from years of trouble-free (relatively) ENTJ maintenance

edit - oh, and if you can make him think as much as possible of your point is actually his idea, that works too.

[PinkPiranha]

Originally Posted by substitute

edit - oh, and if you can make him think as much as possible of your point is actually his idea, that works too.

A clever approach! So noted!

[whatever]

This is an issue where some ENTJs are trying to kick a member (ENFP) out of the organization for not always doing what they say to do. Unfortunatly, the rules that they've put in place are rediculous and contrary to the national branch of the organizations laws. A lot of other members of the organization feel the same way that I do about the issue but are more afraid of the clique of ENTJs than I am. The vote is on Sunday, and several people have come to me expecting me to be able to stop the ENFP from getting expelled [i]and[i] get rid of the rediculous rule at the same time. Am I doomed to hope to stop these people in one hour?!

[whatever]

fuck- the damned computer didn't accept my italics even though they were entered in same way I use them on Word. grrrrrr

[substitute]

Originally Posted by PinkPiranha

A clever approach! So noted!

It's SO not easy though... even when I know him really well I have to catch him off guard... Ne's a definite advantage.

You know that part in the Simpson's movie where they're trying to persuade Mr Burns of something, and Apu starts trying to persuade him to 'look within his heart to see that the only right thing to do for the benefit of mankind etc etc', and Smithers is standing behind gesturing furiously 'no, no, no!' just before Burns releases the hounds?

Take note of that... lol

[substitute]

Originally Posted by whatever

The vote is on Sunday, and several people have come to me expecting me to be able to stop the ENFP from getting expelled [i]and[i] get rid of the rediculous rule at the same time. Am I doomed to hope to stop these people in one hour?!

In one hour? Yes, most definitely, abandon hope here.

However, if between now and Sunday, you can persuade someone the guy trusts to have a word with him for you, then you might have a glimmer of hope.