INTJs vs. INTPs

[Jennifer]

Originally Posted by Luke

Instead of being INTP, I would be INTj in that system. An INTJ would likewise be called an INTp. There's a good theoretical reason for this, even though it's more cumbersome on a practical level. From an inward perspective an INTP is actually more uptight -- they want 100% logical answers to everything. Whereas from an outward, everyday perspective, they "let things slide" more easily, and are more "laid back", less critical -- all the stereotypical P traits. So you look at one and think "P" but after getting to know them close-up, you have some doubts because they're really kind of uptight. The same happens for INTJ. They only seem J-like on the surface, once you get to know them they have a side that is much more P-like.

Yup. Very good description... and it's the inherent "contradiction" that confuses many people. Introverts who look J on the outside actually have a very P internal process, and vice versa.

So when you first meet them, INTJs can look more particular and uptight, whereas INTPs seem more flexible and easy-going; but once you get inside of them and really interact over the long term, you quickly realize that INTPs dig in tremendously when it comes to how ideas are thought about, what can be derived from reality and what cannot, etc. In general, INTPs do not seek to impose themselves on others... but they are "anal" as to what they will accept as valid in their thinking process, and internally they critique anything that goes on outside of them, they just don't often share it. INTJs seem much more flexible internally; it's just their need for external closure that can make them seem demanding at times.

And the same would go for the other IJ/IP pairs (and that might be worth articulating too ) :

- ISFx
- ISTx
- INFx

One approach is to use a lowercase 4-letter to refer only to strict rationality. Then Fi-dominant and Ti-dominant types will be the lowercase-j's along with the Fe and Te dominant types. But the original meaning of uppercase J and P is not going to go away any time soon, so I really don't think this is the best idea as a general practice.

It does become confusing if someone has not realized that Socionics is different from MBTI in this regard.

Originally Posted by proteanmix

Luke, you actually know what the hell you're talking about!

Yup, he's good. And knows more about Socionics than most of us, too!

[Athenian200]

Socionics shouldn't even use the same nomenclature, because it's a different system with different assumptions about the functions and the arrangement of the psyche. Some of the functions have subtle but important differences in their meaning. In fact, a person can be a different type in Socionics than in MBTI, and vice-versa.

Some people are convinced that it is reasonable to use a J/P switch for Introverts to convert between Socionic and MBTI systems, but the differences between the systems are more complex than that.

It already has it's own letters, like LII, EII, EIE, and so on. It's just a matter of convincing people that it's to their advantage to use the proper notation.

Sorry about this complaint, I just thought I'd mention it while we were discussing Socionics.

[MacGuffin]

The rest of your post is brilliant.

Originally Posted by Luke

If you use X to mean "unknown" then it's a useful concept. So long as I'm not sure whether I'm Ti-dominant or Ni-dominant, I can't confidently describe myself as anything else. The other three letters are usually easier to narrow down. J/P has a special meaning for introverts that makes it easy to mess up on, so caution is merited.

Like you say, X could have merit, but I find it difficult to believe one can't figure out what their leading process is. Ni and Ti are not similar at all.

If someone is that screwed up, I'd call into question all their preferences.

[Usehername]

Originally Posted by MacGuffin

The rest of your post is brilliant.



Like you say, X could have merit, but I find it difficult to believe one can't figure out what their leading process is. Ni and Ti are not similar at all.

If someone is that screwed up, I'd call into question all their preferences.

maybe he just doesn't have a solid grasp on the functions?

or maybe his childhood required of him to use unfavored functions and he's super balanced?

[MacGuffin]

Originally Posted by Usehername

maybe he just doesn't have a solid grasp on the functions?

or maybe his childhood required of him to use unfavored functions and he's super balanced?

Exactly, there is a whole lot more going on than an X for J/P.

[Jennifer]

And if he is the product of two alien races not genetically connected to homo sapiens... well, everything is up for grabs. (But that would be silly, Mulder, wouldn't it?)

[MacGuffin]

Originally Posted by Jennifer

And if he is the product of two alien races not genetically connected to homo sapiens... well, everything is up for grabs. (But that would be silly, Mulder, wouldn't it?)

You can't handle the truth!





Whoops... wrong truth quote.

[Athenian200]

Originally Posted by MacGuffin

Like you say, X could have merit, but I find it difficult to believe one can't figure out what their leading process is. Ni and Ti are not similar at all.

If someone is that screwed up, I'd call into question all their preferences.

I agree. I tend to be a little irritated when someone calls themselves an INFx, or claims to be an INFJ or INFP close on J/P dimensions. That's completely unreasonable if you understand the theory. Fi and Ni are completely different. An INFJ should be more likely to be confused between INTJ and INFJ if they're more Ni-focused. I feel that I have little in common with INFP's besides the basic NF motivations, and a concern for others. I have trouble relating to they're way of approaching things, however.

If people are such that J/P can reasonably be that close without dramatically changing the psyche's structure, then the MBTI is severely flawed.

[wildcat]

Originally Posted by Xander

INTP.

If your that bothered by your definition then I'd place money on INTP. Most INTJs I know couldn't give a monkey's left nut what you labelled them as.

An SS man used to hang in a street corner and yell and call my INTJ father the murderer of Christ. If he did not give a monkey's left nut he did not show it.

I do not know what happened to the right nut.

[Xander]

Originally Posted by wildcat

An SS man used to hang in a street corner and yell and call my INTJ father the murderer of Christ. If he did not give a monkey's left nut he did not show it.

I do not know what happened to the right nut.

Pissed off introverts can extrovert.
People who favour thought over feeling can be gushy and over emotional.
All wholes are the sum of parts but you recognise an apple as a solid yes it is largely water (if my memory serves). You would not call it a liquid and yet to some extent it is.
Words constrict dear boy but to be precise is to say everything which would take ages) or concede and say nothing.