NT Responsibility, SP enjoyment and own example

[Santtu]

In a discussion with friend, I noticed that the all and everything in my world would be to get loads of money, party, drink beer, play games, travel, listen to good music, make good food, indulge myself, buy good things, show off, make friends and lose them, and to live offensively exuberant lifestyle in every way. I'd give a damn about wisdom, values and other such things! I would really love it.. "I'm not deep, or responsible.. I'm shallow and irresponsible, and it's awesome, IN-YOUR-FACE!"

That would really be awesome, as long as the games would be good enough, beer tasty, etc, etc..

Any other responsible, hard-working adults who've entertained an idea like this?

[Santtu]

Why I think being an example of mature, logical and responsible person wouldn't work as hoped
Ok perhaps I am alone, but shamelessly so. I dont think my informational role is needed in the society, and because I feel marginalized (I am independent, little connected, decide about my own business deals), I am not a pillar of strength anywhere. Anyone working in similar functions could replace me without any ill effect to the society or to the work I'm in.

How to really use analytical skills and ability to be responsible
People don't seek expert opionion, analysis, improvement, development or such. It does not work as my niche to be the responsible provider and pillar-of-strength + perfection -type person, for I am not needed in any critical point. When people seek my skills, they come so with good contracts in hand, for they know that I price myself realistically. It's only business, someone else could replace me.

Even tho I often see that someone could benefit from the advice, there is a strong resistance against good advice, people don't seem to seek it, or seem to be accepting of advice when they haven't asked for it. Instead I started to rather use my own advise and to ask for advice myself, and it has paid off. My life is on a great upwards trend, objectively measured, altho I am not in the mood for celebration yet, altho I will be.

What do people really want?
Surprisingly people are, on the whole, so attached to whatever patterns of behavior and thought that does not help them to meet their objectives. For a while, I was offended by it (years ago). Now I see that I should be more of an expert educator too, and not just know the subject matter. I realize it is not my place to push opinions too strong; I have felt rejected and hurt, when I have put myself into giving good advice, only to see it rejected, when it has turned out to be different than what the person expected.

Example: a friend is complaining about the difficulties of getting a job. He makes a case that logically speaking, job A is a physical work that makes tanglible products that are always in need, making that a secure career option. I point out that the employment level of that profession is lower than that of the alternative. My friend gets offended by what he thought as bad-mouthing a good, honest job.

Now I understand that people love to decide for themselves, and to hold personal beliefs, however logically invalid such a behaviour would be. Everybody has brains however, and they don't work entirely logically. Mine neither. Some have better, some have worse ability to decide on various issues. It's still better to decide oneself rather than to accept such proofs which don't make sense personally, or which are offending to personal standards.

My point in this long essay is this: instead of carrying the responsibility that the people have the correct knowledge, I have started to respect their autonomy and to use my thinking to improve myself instead. This has worked to get more appreciation from the people around me, and has paid off for me to decide what career to take and how to live my life, and I now work for about 4400-4800 eur/month. This has happened recently.
Expressed maturity and responsibility - a good thing, situationally used
I can still be observant of the people who are ready to hear good advice. It is just my conclusion that it's better to enjoy people for what they are, and to be accepting and appreciating of people. Instead I'll have to keep my strong Ti for myself, and it doesn't have to be visible for everyone else. It is Ti, it is better suited for person themselves and expert systems, not for the main everyday expression style.

How the acceptance of human weaknesses makes it better for everyone
Moreover, my reasoning goes this: people want to go wrong, they want to lose money, opportunities, etc. Their own way. They buy lottery tickets that give negative expected profit. They don't want me to correct them. They want me to accept what they want, how they approach life, and I can do just that. I can enjoy giving the appearance of someone who does not think, if it helps me to get along with people better. If someone really thinks that he must some of his things for too low a price, who am I to argue if he wants to sell them for me? If someone thinks that the work as a carpenteer is great just now, who am I to argue, if he makes great drinking company? If someone wants to party so long they'll have to excuse themself from work the next day, who am I to hold him?

This life of pleasure is something to appreciate for myself too, not only for others. If I arrange for the lifestyle carefully enough, I may avoid the pitfalls that I would otherwise encounter, giving me the exuberant life that resembles that of ESTP, although I would say that this kind of philosophy defies being typed strictly.

This still leaves the possibility to be as professional and serious as needed in any business encounters needed. Situational logics, situational behaviour, situational ethics - that's what I say. All those combined with rational self-interest.
Addition
Probably I would not have gotten these jobs without appearing responsible and career-orientated, so I would still have to maintain responsible image from myself to secure new jobs, when these current projects end.

[Maverick]

Originally Posted by Santtu

Example: a friend is complaining about the difficulties of getting a job. He makes a case that logically speaking, job A is a physical work that makes tanglible products that are always in need, making that a secure career option. I point out that the employment level of that profession is lower than that of the alternative. My friend gets offended by what he thought as bad-mouthing a good, honest job.

Well if he gets offended for that, he's stupid, no?

My point in this long essay is this: instead of carrying the responsibility that the people have the correct knowledge, I have started to respect their autonomy and to use my thinking to improve myself instead. This has worked to get more appreciation from the people around me, and has paid off for me to decide what career to take and how to live my life, and I now work for about 4400-4800 eur/month. This has happened recently.

You mean you started being more selfish instead of trying to help others? Good call.

Moreover, my reasoning goes this: people want to go wrong, they want to lose money, opportunities, etc. Their own way. They buy lottery tickets that give negative expected profit. They don't want me to correct them. They want me to accept what they want, how they approach life, and I can do just that. I can enjoy giving the appearance of someone who does not think, if it helps me to get along with people better. If someone really thinks that he must some of his things for too low a price, who am I to argue if he wants to sell them for me? If someone thinks that the work as a carpenteer is great just now, who am I to argue, if he makes great drinking company? If someone wants to party so long they'll have to excuse themself from work the next day, who am I to hold him?

I think you just lack self-confidence and are afraid of being rejected by people. Just be more assertive about what you believe and to hell with them if they can't cope with it. You have the right to your own opinion! Anyone who would like to make you think otherwise is trying to take your strengths off you.

This life of pleasure is something to appreciate for myself too, not only for others. If I arrange for the lifestyle carefully enough, I may avoid the pitfalls that I would otherwise encounter, giving me the exuberant life that resembles that of ESTP, although I would say that this kind of philosophy defies being typed strictly.

I agree with the SP enjoyment mindset. That's basically how I try to live my life. I don't believe in some sort of spiritual thing. I believe in the here and now. The only thing that you're sure of is what makes you feel good. So go and get it and screw everything else.

[Athenian200]

Originally Posted by Santtu

Why I think being an example of mature, logical and responsible person wouldn't work as hoped
Ok perhaps I am alone, but shamelessly so. I dont think my informational role is needed in the society, and because I feel marginalized (I am independent, little connected, decide about my own business deals), I am not a pillar of strength anywhere. Anyone working in similar functions could replace me without any ill effect to the society or to the work I'm in.

How to really use analytical skills and ability to be responsible
People don't seek expert opionion, analysis, improvement, development or such. It does not work as my niche to be the responsible provider and pillar-of-strength + perfection -type person, for I am not needed in any critical point. When people seek my skills, they come so with good contracts in hand, for they know that I price myself realistically. It's only business, someone else could replace me.

Even tho I often see that someone could benefit from the advice, there is a strong resistance against good advice, people don't seem to seek it, or seem to be accepting of advice when they haven't asked for it. Instead I started to rather use my own advise and to ask for advice myself, and it has paid off. My life is on a great upwards trend, objectively measured, altho I am not in the mood for celebration yet, altho I will be.

What do people really want?
Surprisingly people are, on the whole, so attached to whatever patterns of behavior and thought that does not help them to meet their objectives. For a while, I was offended by it (years ago). Now I see that I should be more of an expert educator too, and not just know the subject matter. I realize it is not my place to push opinions too strong; I have felt rejected and hurt, when I have put myself into giving good advice, only to see it rejected, when it has turned out to be different than what the person expected.

Example: a friend is complaining about the difficulties of getting a job. He makes a case that logically speaking, job A is a physical work that makes tanglible products that are always in need, making that a secure career option. I point out that the employment level of that profession is lower than that of the alternative. My friend gets offended by what he thought as bad-mouthing a good, honest job.

Now I understand that people love to decide for themselves, and to hold personal beliefs, however logically invalid such a behaviour would be. Everybody has brains however, and they don't work entirely logically. Mine neither. Some have better, some have worse ability to decide on various issues. It's still better to decide oneself rather than to accept such proofs which don't make sense personally, or which are offending to personal standards.

My point in this long essay is this: instead of carrying the responsibility that the people have the correct knowledge, I have started to respect their autonomy and to use my thinking to improve myself instead. This has worked to get more appreciation from the people around me, and has paid off for me to decide what career to take and how to live my life, and I now work for about 4400-4800 eur/month. This has happened recently.
Expressed maturity and responsibility - a good thing, situationally used
I can still be observant of the people who are ready to hear good advice. It is just my conclusion that it's better to enjoy people for what they are, and to be accepting and appreciating of people. Instead I'll have to keep my strong Ti for myself, and it doesn't have to be visible for everyone else. It is Ti, it is better suited for person themselves and expert systems, not for the main everyday expression style.

How the acceptance of human weaknesses makes it better for everyone
Moreover, my reasoning goes this: people want to go wrong, they want to lose money, opportunities, etc. Their own way. They buy lottery tickets that give negative expected profit. They don't want me to correct them. They want me to accept what they want, how they approach life, and I can do just that. I can enjoy giving the appearance of someone who does not think, if it helps me to get along with people better. If someone really thinks that he must some of his things for too low a price, who am I to argue if he wants to sell them for me? If someone thinks that the work as a carpenteer is great just now, who am I to argue, if he makes great drinking company? If someone wants to party so long they'll have to excuse themself from work the next day, who am I to hold him?

This life of pleasure is something to appreciate for myself too, not only for others. If I arrange for the lifestyle carefully enough, I may avoid the pitfalls that I would otherwise encounter, giving me the exuberant life that resembles that of ESTP, although I would say that this kind of philosophy defies being typed strictly.

This still leaves the possibility to be as professional and serious as needed in any business encounters needed. Situational logics, situational behaviour, situational ethics - that's what I say. All those combined with rational self-interest.
Addition
Probably I would not have gotten these jobs without appearing responsible and career-orientated, so I would still have to maintain responsible image from myself to secure new jobs, when these current projects end.

Okay. Well, if that's what you really want, then do that. But I get a feeling that you're more frustrated with it than anything. Are you really going to be satisfied living in the moment, doing whatever you want, not caring what happens as a consequence? Some people can be happy that way... but I don't think it works very well for intelligent people.

You know, I'm frustrated too. It's not as though I like watching people do things that I know will be bad for them in the long run, but I ignore them because there's nothing I can do. I don't like that philosophy of lifelong partying and as little thinking as possible, but I do sort of focus on my own benefit, and that of the people I care about above others, because I prioritize. I think that's all you need to do, simply value some interests above others.

Also, I need your help to keep society from falling part, or at least fix/replace it, when the impact of all this behavior finally manifests. Don't become one of my enemies who's trying to tear everything down faster, please?

[Santtu]

Ahh you are right, can't do it. I incline more to the responsible side and being an example. pff.

[substitute]

Originally Posted by Santtu

Ahh you are right, can't do it. I incline more to the responsible side and being an example. pff.

It's your Si mate. I get the same thing. My dominant side would have me being completely impetuous, spontaneous, risk taking and irresponsible if it didn't have that Si tugging it down at the bottom, making me feel ashamed of myself and telling me to buck up my ideas and be more dutiful. I've learned to harness it rather than fight against it or let it control me