[INTP] Defeatism created by INTP type description

[ygolo]

Prompted by

I'm going to go as far as I can go. Surely a Masters and maybe a Ph.D if possible. It really depends on money and patience. I have a really hard time focusing on the work I need to do with the INTP mind of mine. I wonder off too much and I'm quite lazy.

from another thread.

I find myself thinking this way from time to time and I hate it. I never thought like that before I heard about MBTI or the "Knows All, Does Nothing" stereotype of the INTP.

I implore people to please, please, be careful when learning about MBTI -- it can be detremental to your well-being.

 

[Totenkindly]

The tendency is real enough, but there's no reason for us to play straight into it.

To be successful at life (or to at least grow as people), at some point we have to start projecting ourselves into the outer world.

 

[ygolo]

The tendency is real enough, but there's no reason for us to play straight into it.

To be successful at life (or to at least grow as people), at some point we have to start projecting ourselves into the outer world.

What I'm getting at is that it is self-defeating (in terms of projecting ourselves in to the outer world) if we believe we have some special handicap that makes it hard to do things.

 

[JonJT]

Prompted by



from another thread.

I find myself thinking this way from time to time and I hate it. I never thought like that before I heard about MBTI or the "Knows All, Does Nothing" stereotype of the INTP.

I implore people to please, please, be careful when learning about MBTI -- it can be detremental to your well-being.

LOL. Since I prompted this thread and the subsequent comments on the MBTI typing system, let me share my feelings (GASP!!!).

The MBTI typing system is an interesting system because is presents somewhat of a pseudoscience we can employ to understand what makes us tick. It is applicable to many interpersonal and private happengings and helps us better understand them. The MBTI typing system can be dangerous when applied too often or taken too literally. It can also be dangerous when people modify their behavior in order to align themselves with what MBTI says they might be. I fully believe MBTI should be taken at face value and only be applied to anecdotal evidence after the fact. I don't ever use MBTI as guide lines for life, doing so is dangerous. I'd even go so far as to say that typing other people is dangerous. I think one might be more inclined to change their behavior in response to a type they hold reservations for, even if the people in question have no specific knowledge of each other. Interactions with people should be felt and though out while the interaction is going on. Making decisions from a distance, hell even making decisions based on MBTI isn't something I think should be done.

Now, my previous statement is not an example of me shaping my behaviors to align with an INTPs characteristic laziness. I'm naturally lazy and somewhat unmotivated. I was this way before I ever heard about MBTI, I knew I was this way before MBTI and I'm probably going to stay this way for a long time. The reason I am choosing to stop my education before I reach the Ph.D stage is because I want to move on to a job and apply the knowledge I am gaining. Defeat isn't in my vocabulary, I just want change.

 

[Kiddo]

I implore people to please, please, be careful when learning about MBTI -- it can be detremental to your well-being.

I kind of know what you mean. I read the type on INFJ and I thought, "I'm suppose to be some sort of psychic or mystic? I should be able to read people's hidden motives and psychological processes like a book?" I've tried in the past and have made a huge ass out of myself by making mountains out of mole hills. Heck, I feel embarrassed for others when they try because it just isn't that way. Before the MBTI I would have never been so silly as to even imagine that I was somehow so intuitive that I could read minds.

The way I see it, INFJs are just good at seeing things from more than one perspective and picking up how a person is feeling and that sometimes gives them an edge in understanding what a person might be thinking. Often for me that isn't a good thing because it can create full blown paranoia. Another thing that wasn't helped by the "NFJs are prone to picking up the worst case scenario" stereotype. For example, I sometimes create situations in my head where people hate me, are making fun of me behind my back, or are even out to get me, when that just isn't the case. I sometimes wonder how much of my behavior was prompted by the test.

 

[JonJT]

What I'm getting at is that it is self-defeating (in terms of projecting ourselves in to the outer world) if we believe we have some special handicap that makes it hard to do things.

I don't believe it will be any harder to attain a Ph.D because of my laziness. I'm tired of doing school work and want to apply my mind while in the field.

My involvement in a student project team only fuels this desire. I help create and get to drive an open wheel racecar with other student engineers in my free time. Being able to turn raw material into something faster than anything street legal under 500K is a great feeling. Its also provides practical experience and gives me a huge edge over students who only hit the books. I enjoy doing this while in school, and I'm excited to go do the same once I graduate.

 

[ygolo]

Now, my previous statement is not an example of me shaping my behaviors to align with an INTPs characteristic laziness. I'm naturally lazy and somewhat unmotivated. I was this way before I ever heard about MBTI, I knew I was this way before MBTI and I'm probably going to stay this way for a long time. The reason I am choosing to stop my education before I reach the Ph.D stage is because I want to move on to a job and apply the knowledge I am gaining. Defeat isn't in my vocabulary, I just want change.

I see.

Getting a Ph. D., eventually, is one of my goals too. But, like you(?), I don't want to get it in an irrelevant or esoteric field. I like to apply the theories I learn.

It's just that your wording triggered in me associations w/ people I know who say thing like, "I know most people can do <whatever> if they put in the effort, but they just don't have MY problems". Anything phrased like that (I do it too), seems defeatist to me.

Upon re-reading your post, I see I was doing too much inference.

Still, I think the INTP decription has fostered somewhat of a defeatist attitude in me, and I hate that.

I don't belive myself to be an "idle intellectual" nor someone who lacks follow through, and I resent being typed in a category with that as one of the characteristic weaknesses.

 

[JonJT]

I see.

Getting a Ph. D., eventually, is one of my goals too. But, like you(?), I don't want to get it in an irrelevant or esoteric field. I like to apply the theories I learn.

It's just that your wording triggered in me associations w/ people I know who say thing like, "I know most people can do <whatever> if they put in the effort, but they just don't have MY problems". Anything phrased like that (I do it too), seems defeatist to me.

Upon re-reading your post, I see I was doing too much inference.

Still, I think the INTP decription has fostered somewhat of a defeatist attitude in me, and I hate that.

I don't belive myself to be an "idle intellectual" nor someone who lacks follow through, and I resent being typed in a category with that as one of the characteristic weaknesses.

Honestly, becoming an expert in a useless field isn't something I really ever worried about. If I choose to go to that length, I'd probably end up with a degree in Mechanical Engineering or Theoretical and Applied Mechanics. I'm not interested in academia, but even still there are numerous places in the field I could apply my talents. Ultimately, I'd thoroughly enjoy working for McLarens Formula 1 team, despite the large fine they incurred recently! Ph.Ds are probably the ones doing the development work for that company, being as they are on the cutting edge of 4 wheeled road racing technology. I doubt you'd even get a look from a F1 team without a Ph.D.

Reading my sentence, I can understand how you came to the conclusion you came to. Ironically, I'm also the kind of person who hates self defeating attitudes. Don't say you can't do it until you've actually tried it!

The characteristic INTP idleness is demeaning, but the characteristic isn't completely groundless in its assertions. Just like everything in this world, we posses flaws. Laziness happens to be one specific to INTPs. I'm always trying to better myself and this laziness I posses is just one thing I work on. I hate it no more or no less than any of my other negative traits.
Just don't let it get to you, I say!

Now I gotta focus on the studies! I have a thermodynamics test tomorrow and I'm not yet ready for it!

 

[Athenian200]

Actually, laziness is a typical characteristic of I__P's. E__J's are aggressive and driven, I__J's are overprecise workaholics (especially IxTJ's), and E__P's are random and unfocused.

But I don't think INTP's are specifically lazy... they may just not utilize their intellect to the extent other NT's do, and only do however much they must in order to get by. They're probably the most motivated of the I__P's, actually.

 

[ygolo]

But I don't think INTP's are specifically lazy... they may just not utilize their intellect to the extent other NT's do, and only do however much they must in order to get by.

Weird, there are many INTPs, I know, who essentially utilize their intellect as if it were the only thing they had.

It seems a little outside the stereotype to consider INTPs the NT's who least utilize their intellect. Especially since, some type descriptions actually call the INTP "The Thinker".

I wonder what you mean by "utilizing the intellect". I think INTP's are good candidates for "over-utilizing their intellects".

 

[The Unknown Essence]

I disagree with athenian200. I think INTPs do over utilize their intellects to the point of getting lost in analysing theories rather than applying them. I know that if I come across an idea or concept that interests me, I can spend a really long time gaining pleasure from dissecting it in my mind. I have very little interest in implementing the ideas in the real world.

As for whether this "knowing, but not doing" is a bad thing, I think it can be. For example, my perfect job would consist of being paid to come up with new ideas(E.G. concepts for new TV shows) while others would be responsible for making my ideas into reality. However, no such job exists. That's the problem for me.

 

[SolitaryWalker]

Prompted by



from another thread.

I find myself thinking this way from time to time and I hate it. I never thought like that before I heard about MBTI or the "Knows All, Does Nothing" stereotype of the INTP.

I implore people to please, please, be careful when learning about MBTI -- it can be detremental to your well-being.

Defeatist? Lack of external achievements does not imply a defeat of any kind. INTPs only need enough external achievements to protect the integrity of their inner world. Going any further would be unnecessary tyranny.

After all, this is what introverted judgment is about: setting an internal standard by which all is to be evaluated. External achievements are only desirable if they are required by an internal standard. There is no need to accept them uncritically with an EJ mentality.

 

[Metamorphosis]

I think his point was that we shouldn't limit ourselves based on the perceived weaknesses described in MBTI type descriptions.

 

[Athenian200]

Weird, there are many INTPs, I know, who essentially utilize their intellect as if it were the only thing they had.

It seems a little outside the stereotype to consider INTPs the NT's who least utilize their intellect. Especially since, some type descriptions actually call the INTP "The Thinker".

I wonder what you mean by "utilizing the intellect". I think INTP's are good candidates for "over-utilizing their intellects".

I meant that they don't actually use their intellect to achieve anything externally. They tend to just use it for hobbies and analyzing theories, perhaps taking only the amount of work they need to get by so they can focus on their thoughts. Actually, I use Thinking in roughly the same way... but that's because I'm more focused on sensitivity, awareness, and tact when I deal with people.

I never said INTP's weren't intellectual.

 

[ygolo]

I meant that they don't actually use their intellect to achieve anything externally. They tend to just use it for hobbies and analyzing theories, perhaps taking only the amount of work they need to get by so they can focus on their thoughts.

What is this abstract "external achievement" you speak of? Was Einstein's achievement "external"? It is recodred externally, but I think his "achievement" was internal.

On a more mundane note, is a design for part a chip or a piece of software, "external"? Again, recorded externally, tested externally, but the "resolution of forces", the solution to constraints of the problem were "achieved" internally.

Do you see value in that? Do you see painstaking work in that? Do you see how focus or primacy on the "external" aspects can ruin that?

I never said INTP's weren't intellectual.

Not in so many words, but I equate utilizing the intellect with being intellectual.

I have yet to caox-out and understand this other (negative?) perception of "being intellectual".

 

[JonJT]

What is this abstract "external achievement" you speak of? Was Einstein's achievement "external"? It is recodred externally, but I think his "achievement" was internal.

On a more mundane note, is a design for part a chip or a piece of software, "external"? Again, recorded externally, tested externally, but the "resolution of forces", the solution to constraints of the problem were "achieved" internally.

Do you see value in that? Do you see painstaking work in that? Do you see how focus or primacy on the "external" aspects can ruin that?



Not in so many words, but I equate utilizing the intellect with being intellectual.

I have yet to caox-out and understand this other (negative?) perception of "being intellectual".

The external achievement he speaks of is a concept I understand completely. I have a strong desire to contemplate the world I live in, but I am also driven (although to a lesser extent) to get things done that are tangible conceptually or physically by those who surround me. Being able to cross things off the list feels good too.

 

[ygolo]

The external achievement he speaks of is a concept I understand completely. I have a strong desire to contemplate the world I live in, but I am also driven (although to a lesser extent) to get things done that are tangible conceptually or physically by those who surround me. Being able to cross things off the list feels good too.

I was playing devil's advocate (I forgot my , so if I offended you Athenian200, I am sorry) Unfortunately, subtlety in discourse is difficult.

I was trying to walk a fine line between many different ideas related to the same words. I post again (or EDIT) when I come up with words to describe my thoughts.

 

[Athenian200]

What is this abstract "external achievement" you speak of? Was Einstein's achievement "external"? It is recorded externally, but I think his "achievement" was internal.

Possible... but he did find a way to take the ideas from his mind, and explain them in terms other people could understand. Some INTP's just accumulate understanding, and never bother to use it or explain it.

On a more mundane note, is a design for part a chip or a piece of software, "external"? Again, recorded externally, tested externally, but the "resolution of forces", the solution to constraints of the problem were "achieved" internally.

If you want to be technical, I suppose so. But the point was, that INTP's are more focused on the internal factor than the external factor, and thus from a Judging perspective, usually achieve less externally than do other types.

Do you see value in that? Do you see painstaking work in that? Do you see how focus or primacy on the "external" aspects can ruin that?

Yes, of course I do. I would never say that Rene Descartes or other such people didn't come up with anything meaningful. The thing is, what they contributed is less immediately apparent because it often changes the way we think about things rather than having an immediately obvious benefit.

Not in so many words, but I equate utilizing the intellect with being intellectual.

I have yet to coax out and understand this other (negative?) perception of "being intellectual".

Perhaps I misspoke. It isn't that they don't utilize it, it's that they don't use it for their own personal gain as often as for the sake of the idea itself. This means that by conventional standards, they are less successful, although they may be lauded after the implications of their idea are realized. But the actual application of it is often from someone other than themselves.

 

[ygolo]

It isn't that they don't utilize it, it's that they don't use it for their own personal gain as often as for the sake of the idea itself.

I believe this to be true. But I thought if I said that, it would be self-gratification, more than an explanation. But since you said it, not me...

This means that by conventional standards, they are less successful, although they may be lauded after the implications of their idea are realized. But the actual application of it is often from someone other than themselves.

Most INTPs I am acquainted with IRL are fairly well-off materially, but I doubt that material success is high on their list of priorities. I don't think material success is the "conventional" sense of success, either. But I think that can all be discussed under the success thread formed earlier.
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If I didn't learn about MBTI, I would not have thoughts like the following...

As for whether this "knowing, but not doing" is a bad thing, I think it can be. For example, my perfect job would consist of being paid to come up with new ideas(E.G. concepts for new TV shows) while others would be responsible for making my ideas into reality. However, no such job exists. That's the problem for me.

This seems somewhat self-defeating. How do we know that no such job exists? Our economy runs on specialization, why can we not work with ours?

 

[Polgara]

I find myself thinking this way from time to time and I hate it. I never thought like that before I heard about MBTI or the "Knows All, Does Nothing" stereotype of the INTP.

Someone (I think it was Ramakrishna) once said that the further you advance toward God, the less worldly duties he gives you to perform. I enjoy my INTP tendancy live inside my head--and the analyzing skills that come with it. I highly recommend the book / CD "Being in Balance" by Dr. Wayne Dyer. You can "just be" and be highly productive at the same time.