Do NF's have power and control issues?

[Eric B]

Powerlessness is said to be a stressor for NT's by Berens, and mastery the core need, yet you do not see this described for NF's. In the traditional temperament model, the Choleric was the one who sought power. Yet Berens, following Keirsey, links the NF to Choleric instead of the NT (this mainly because of the "exciteability" of one and the "coolness" of the other).
NF needs are "meaning and significance" and "unique identity".

But the old Choleric on the other hand is never ascribed such goals as "building bridges between people", "their lives center around deep empathetic relationships", "creating harmony", "natural givers of sincere compliments", "working toward the greater good".
They are purely focused on power for their own goals, (and empathy is often the biggest thing they are said to lack!) While this can be associated with "significance" and "identity", the motivations are completely different from what Keirsey and Berens describe for the NF.

So what I was wondering is if NF's might use power seeking to fulfill their need for meaning, significance and unique identity, and if NT's might develop significance and identity issues if they don't have the power, mastery and competence then need.

NF types seem to be described as allowing control by others (being influenced, even taken advantage of,etc), as well as not imposing on them (allowing people to have their own unique identity), the exception being when values are at stake.

So would NF's describe themselves as having any kind of "power" issues?

[Clownmaster]

In social environments, I often subtly manipulate the environment around me to give off a persona that attracts meaning and signifigance to myself, if that's what you're asking.

[runvardh]

I guess I like the idea of having power and control to find meaning and significance; the problem is everything I get my hands on it things turn to crap.

[Eric B]

I mean more in terms of power over people and situations. The "choleric" sense of "power and control".

I don't really understand "give off a persona that attracts meaning and signifigance to myself". Is that being popular or charming. That's not really what I mean, though you can gain power and control that way (like swaying people).

And do you actively seek power and control find meaning, or get frustrated when you don't have that particular means; beyond just liking the idea?

[SillyGoose]

No, I do not seek power or control over anything ever.

However I do know that I can manipulate most situations at anytime to give me more power or control. But it is disgusting to me to even think about doing it.

I'd rather meet or need to meet people on real terms, rather than fake ones. By manipulating my way into something doesn't give me the connection I need.

[Anja]

Originally Posted by SillyGoose

No, I do not seek power or control over anything ever.

However I do know that I can manipulate most situations at anytime to give me more power or control. But it is disgusting to me to even think about doing it.

I'd rather meet or need to meet people on real terms, rather than fake ones. By manipulating my way into something doesn't give me the connection I need.

Mercy, Goose. Words of profound wisdom you spoke there.

My mom was a manipulative person and an "aha" moment for me was the day I realized that in manipulating others to do what she wanted she was robbing herself of the chance to know if people were doing things because they genuinely liked her or if they were only doing them because she thought she was making them do it. A sad thing, indeed.

And with a consistently manipulative person most people figure it out after a while and just go along with them, sometimes unhappily, just to keep the peace. A bad situation all around.

[SillyGoose]

Originally Posted by Anja

Mercy, Goose. Words of profound wisdom you spoke there.

My mom was a manipulative person and an "aha" moment for me was the day I realized that in manipulating others to do what she wanted she was robbing herself of the chance to know if people were doing things because they genuinely liked her or if they were only doing them because she thought she was making them do it. A sad thing, indeed.

And with a consistently manipulative person most people figure it out after a while and just go along with them, sometimes unhappily, just to keep the peace. A bad situation all around.

It is sad. I think everyone knows somebody like this at some point in their life. It's very enlightening when you realize (aha moment indeed!) that it really doesn't establish any "real" connections to people in life.

However I've noticed that these sort of people don't usually care to establish a real connection.

[Anja]

Yeah, my poor mom is like that. She keeps others at arms length. I feel sorry for her because she is missing out on so much.

I suspect that she's afraid no one would like the real her. And, of course, I have for years and like her fine. But I don't think she knows how much I truly know her. Ha.

She's becoming senile and so I am getting to know the real her better all the time and she's a lot of fun now that she's forgotten to pretend.

You know, I think power and control is very much an illusion. What do any of us have power over anyway? Destruction, certainly. And even that can be an illusion because there are always those who will rebuild.

I've known a handful of batterers in my life and while they appear to be all about power and control, sometimes when they lose the person they "control" and which makes them feel powerful, they self-destruct.

[phoenix13]

I'm not familiar with Berens or Keirsey on any deep level, so I've nothing to offer there.

Originally Posted by Eric B

So what I was wondering is if NF's might use power seeking to fulfill their need for meaning, significance and unique identity, and if NT's might develop significance and identity issues if they don't have the power, mastery and competence then need.

I'm not sure I understand the question. My simplified paraphrase is: Do NFs use power to find their sense of self, and NTs loose their sense of self without power?
Where do I tackle that from? I definitely could use some clarification. Also, is there any particular definition of power that you're working with, or just the general notion?

Originally Posted by Eric B

NF types seem to be described as allowing control by others (being influenced, even taken advantage of,etc), as well as not imposing on them (allowing people to have their own unique identity), the exception being when values are at stake.

So would NF's describe themselves as having any kind of "power" issues?

the bold: "Being influenced" as in, taking in others' view points, or being used? Yes to the former, and hell no to the later.

the non-bold: absolutely 100%. Even when values are at stake, I make my values known to them and/or give them information to re-inform their judgement. I never, however, claim to or want to have power over what they actually end up doing. (Of course, we're not talking about murder or rape or genocide here, in which case I'd kick their ass(es) sooooo hard.)


For ENFPs at least, our power-issues (more like issues with power) are linked to preserving our independence and autonomy. Thus, many of us don't engage in malicious social manipulation, or bark out commands. When someone trys to do it to us, we usually see it and get pissed and tell them to knock it off lest we be forced to knock them off their throne which is the toilet (loose associations anyone? I'm sleeeeeepy.) IOW, we don't outright seek control. If we have it, we'll likely be democratic with it, or use it to empower others.

[phoenix13]

Originally Posted by Eric B

I mean more in terms of power over people and situations. The "choleric" sense of "power and control".

I don't really understand "give off a persona that attracts meaning and signifigance to myself". Is that being popular or charming. That's not really what I mean, though you can gain power and control that way (like swaying people).

And do you actively seek power and control find meaning, or get frustrated when you don't have that particular means; beyond just liking the idea?

You've confused me again, sir Eric. How on earth could one use power/control as a means to find meaning? And you've put out a lot of words like: competence, meaning, identity, goals, etc. Could you reduce those to something I can tackle? I'm a sleepy panda. Maybe I'll get it in the morning...