Games we play

[proteanmix]

I read a book a while ago called Survival Games Personalities Play based on Games People Play by Eric Berne.

NFs, what games are you guilty of playing? Do you do any of these and are there others that you admit to doing? I'm guilty of Grasshopper and Mindreader.


Idealists play the Masquerade game when they feel they have not been authentic or cannot continue to be authentic, benevolent, and empathetic. The Masquerade player puts on a show that is strange, arresting, and captivating. These individuals present phoney problems that are likely to hide their inauthentic selves from public view. Masquerade players alienate themselves from whatever parts of themselves that are a source of shame. Their dramatic performances are meant to lead the self and others away from discovering what the Idealist is ashamed of doing or having done. Hence the purpose of the Masquerade game is deception

[proteanmix]

Ummm...Half my post got cut off, I'll post the rest of it when I get some technical help.

[Littlelostnf]

Very interesting book I picked it up about a year and a half ago. I know I'm seriously guilty of grasshopper...I can't ever seem to share myself with out HUGE effort...I'm more likely to redirect the conversation another way or on the other person... "How are you doing?" "Oh my good no how are YOU doing" (silly example but you get the point) I also play mindreader...not as often but this is the one I really work hard at not doing. I love the case studies in the back of the book. Really good practice.

[proteanmix]

Yeah I often redirect the conversation into being about the other person and it's barely noticed. Not going to lie, that's my favorite. It's so efficient.

I think I worked with another ENFJ (retrospect typing) and she was so good at Grasshopper, it was amazing. I'd ask her a personal question and she toss it back at me and then I'd answer and volley it back to her. I don't know how to describe it. For all intents and purposes, when we would talk it would be a very seamless conversations, but it was hard (at least I felt that way) almost like squeezing blood out of a turnip. No lack of topics, no uncomfortable silences, but something was difficult about it. I don't know, I may have been imagining things . We wouldn't talk over each other, but we both were trying to get personal info out but very reluctant to give any up.

This leads me to think do you wonder if it would be difficult for ENFJs to be friends with each other? I'm used to being in a position in my friendships (with the exception of about three people), that I'm the one that gives advice, I'm the only that helps out. Sometimes I resent the fact that I can't be the one in need, or maybe that I don't allow myself to be in that position, I don't know. When I am, it's like a raw exposed nerve, I hate that feeling and I want things to get to how they were ASAP. Maybe two ENFJs would face this problem of wanting the other person to divulge, but not willing to reveal.

Back to the games, Mindreader happens with family and the closest friends because that tends to get a bit intense. When you start claiming to know what people's true feelings and motives are and/or turn into Hector Projector, you'd better be close enough to them that you can kiss and makeup afterwards.

[Littlelostnf]

Originally Posted by proteanmix

Yeah I often redirect the conversation into being about the other person and it's barely noticed. Not going to lie, that's my favorite. It's so efficient.

I think I worked with another ENFJ (retrospect typing) and she was so good at Grasshopper, it was amazing. I'd ask her a personal question and she toss it back at me and then I'd answer and volley it back to her. I don't know how to describe it. For all intents and purposes, when we would talk it would be a very seamless conversations, but it was hard (at least I felt that way) almost like squeezing blood out of a turnip. No lack of topics, no uncomfortable silences, but something was difficult about it. I don't know, I may have been imagining things . We wouldn't talk over each other, but we both were trying to get personal info out but very reluctant to give any up.

This leads me to think do you wonder if it would be difficult for ENFJs to be friends with each other? I'm used to being in a position in my friendships (with the exception of about three people), that I'm the one that gives advice, I'm the only that helps out. Sometimes I resent the fact that I can't be the one in need, or maybe that I don't allow myself to be in that position, I don't know. When I am, it's like a raw exposed nerve, I hate that feeling and I want things to get to how they were ASAP. Maybe two ENFJs would face this problem of wanting the other person to divulge, but not willing to reveal.

Back to the games, Mindreader happens with family and the closest friends because that tends to get a bit intense. When you start claiming to know what people's true feelings and motives are and/or turn into Hector Projector, you'd better be close enough to them that you can kiss and makeup afterwards.

I've often wondered that...about two ENFJ's being friends. I have a woman at work (older than I am by about 10-12 years) but I think she's fantastic. She's an ENFJ. I can't claim we're FRIENDS because outside of school we've only spent one day seriously socializing and we were joined by three others (teachers on a "YEAH schools over" trip) Anyway I have a feeling we'd be able to sustain a great convo and I think she's given me more personal info than I've given to her (perhaps that comes with age) and perhaps it's just been having the opportunity to talk more with her.

I know that I, like you am always in the position of advice giver. I sometimes long to be the one who receives but I also know that to do that I have to trust someone with info about myself. Yes it's like exposing a raw nerve on purpose...and once I thought..."maybe it's the same for them and they are just braver than you are"...so I tried it...oh my lord it was terrible but I did feel a weight lifted to some extent. I'm not saying it got easier after that, I still give advice more than I get it (about major things) but it was good for me to give (a piece of myself) in that way (info about myself to someone) instead of being the advice giver. For me and for the person I divulged to I think.

Mindreader...the problem for me is that seldomly..and I mean seldomly have I been wrong (I say that not bragging) but so that you realize the problem this is for me. Because I've seldom been wrong when I do it and I'm trying to NOT if I "mindread" something that's going to hurt them down the line or whatever...what do I do then? The few times I've ignored it I felt awful when something happened that perhaps could have been prevented. Now I just sorta hurt myself emotionally by keeping a distance from some situations....I have to conscienciously decide to stay away so I don't get involved enough to "mindread" But you're right....about being close enough to kiss and make up...in my case tho it's been..."Why didn't you say?" ...."I'm sorry I didn't think you'd want to hear it" tough situation to be in.

[Lookin4theBestNU]

You know this book sounds really interesting! I have several books planned already and what order I want to read them. I may have to change order *gasp*.

[Jennifer]

Originally Posted by Lookin4theBestNU

You know this book sounds really interesting! I have several books planned already and what order I want to read them. I may have to change order *gasp*.

You could just pretend to be an INTP and never finish any of them.

[faith]

I haven't read the book, so I can only guess what "grasshopper" means. Does it mean bouncing back the conversation and saying insightful and perfectly appropriate things without taking any risks to reveal oneself? If so, that's my enfj dad in a nutshell.

From what I've gleaned here, these things sound all-too familiar. I have a hard time being friends with other NFs in real life--maybe because we're playing identical roles? I like NFs, but somehow we never "meet". It's like we look at one another and both go, "Yikes! You just saw me! You're not supposed to see me yet!" and then make superhuman efforts to hide without seeming to be hiding.

[chatoyer]

Originally Posted by Littlelostnf

Very interesting book I picked it up about a year and a half ago. I know I'm seriously guilty of grasshopper...I can't ever seem to share myself with out HUGE effort...I'm more likely to redirect the conversation another way or on the other person... "How are you doing?" "Oh my good no how are YOU doing" (silly example but you get the point) I also play mindreader...not as often but this is the one I really work hard at not doing. I love the case studies in the back of the book. Really good practice.

Yeah, it sounds like I'm seriously guilty of grasshopper....but I don't think it's a trust issue so much for me, like I've heard with other ENFs, because I usually think well of the other person. I think it's more of a pride-protective thing -- I want to control my vulnerability & the sides of me that I share so that I have some control over their perception of me. I think I easily feel so judged even when I'm not, so that is a way of managing that on my end.

I'm guilty of mindreading & probably 1/2 a dozen of other ones! , I need to read that book, it sounds really good.

[logan235711]

Originally Posted by proteanmix

Ummm...Half my post got cut off, I'll post the rest of it when I get some technical help.

I know if you paste the missing text in with the edit mode it works, but if you try by going to the advanced mode it cuts off again :\ I don't know what's up but this has happened to me a few times recently as well--wah! annoying!!!

Originally Posted by proteanmix

Yeah I often redirect the conversation into being about the other person and it's barely noticed. Not going to lie, that's my favorite. It's so efficient.

I've actually been getting better at this, not as a method to not divulge myself because I am afraid I am not complete or being myself or something related etc., but because I am experimenting with using it as a tool to create for harmony in a social group I am in and testing it's application in various areas. Of course, as an NT, normally we would never do stuff like this, so some of this is more or less new to me in the sense of actually doing, though I am probably aware of about all of it even before I began exploring it for actual use : )

Originally Posted by proteanmix

Back to the games, Mindreader happens with family and the closest friends because that tends to get a bit intense. When you start claiming to know what people's true feelings and motives are and/or turn into Hector Projector, you'd better be close enough to them that you can kiss and makeup afterwards.

I can only guess what Mindreader means since your post was cut off, so I'll try to understand based off of what has been said about it : )

Mindreader is actually something that bothers me the most when I'm with certain people, esp. some NFs. I guess it's cause I can see through all these games/layers they're putting up but me being more of an F now, I don't want to make them feel uncomfortable by tearing them down just like that, so I just find myself not bothering with a lot of them, not putting myself up to be in a situation like that. I think I've sidetracked, but it bothers me because they are never right with me when they try this stuff, they are so off or have completely misunderstood where I am coming from but sit there and nod their heads like they have it figured out, it makes want to give them a big smack in the face and tell them to get off their high horse cause they know much less than they think they do.

And then almost evertime, they never directly ask me what makes me tick in X situation or how I feel about X and ESP "WHY" I do. They almost always seem to fill in the why which bothers me too, like this one girl said she threw me in a situation before and if I acted either X or Y, then each would mean that I am either V or W person. This so wrong, esp the options she gave. I hope I don't need to point out the absurdity, but to get to the point, because they make their own jumps about me and only ask and inquire about who I am by indirect means, they fill in the rest without me and this makes half the stuff they say, if not easily more completely off :\ I think this applies more to the Js, or at least can be more detrimental as they may act more off of these false notions than a P might.

Originally Posted by faith

[SNIP]
From what I've gleaned here, these things sound all-too familiar. I have a hard time being friends with other NFs in real life--maybe because we're playing identical roles? I like NFs, but somehow we never "meet". It's like we look at one another and both go, "Yikes! You just saw me! You're not supposed to see me yet!" and then make superhuman efforts to hide without seeming to be hiding.

lol I know! It's sometimes fun to watch it happening when you pull two NFs together :p The last part about identity hiding is something that really bothers me as an NT in a relationship with an NF. As an NF I can be more understanding of course, but most NTs might be bothered by that