Calling all ENFJs!

[Mysticalrevan]

Hi Pink!, Hi 3rd!

Sorry i'm so late in replying, I've had a bit of work to do!

Yes Pink, your right, i'm on INTPc too, I'd thought I'd ask the same question here as I want to talk to as many people as possible!

I ask this question to the both of you and to everyone else:

If you were to define what the "middleground" of a ENFJ/INT* relationship, what would it be?

[Domino]

Mutual fascination. Abstraction. Intelligent pursuits. Compatible humor.

For the ENFJ, it's the cooling effect on a hot nature.
For the INTP, it's drawing heat into a cold place.

I get some relief from constantly being on fire, and the INTPs I've dated have seemed excited by heating up.

For the INTJ, I can only go on my experience with my best friend, and he seems to be pretty eye-to-eye with me even when we're disagreeing. He seems to get my J-ness. If someone has to drop a piano on his head, it's usually me that does it. For some reason he can take my harshness impassively/not personally. In fact, he seems to prefer it that way. Must be why he's dating an ENTJ. He says he just prefers to have someone say outrightly and bluntly what they want instead of "herding" him. But he's also not very social at all, so I think he may be relying on a similar pairing to ease that problem.

[Mysticalrevan]

Originally Posted by PinkPiranha

Mutual fascination. Abstraction. Intelligent pursuits. Compatible humor.

For the ENFJ, it's the cooling effect on a hot nature.
For the INTP, it's drawing heat into a cold place.

I get some relief from constantly being on fire, and the INTPs I've dated have seemed excited by heating up.

For the INTJ, I can only go on my experience with my best friend, and he seems to be pretty eye-to-eye with me even when we're disagreeing. He seems to get my J-ness. If someone has to drop a piano on his head, it's usually me that does it. For some reason he can take my harshness impassively/not personally. In fact, he seems to prefer it that way. Must be why he's dating an ENTJ. He says he just prefers to have someone say outrightly and bluntly what they want instead of "herding" him. But he's also not very social at all, so I think he may be relying on a similar pairing to ease that problem.

Very insightful!

I can see why an INTJ would prefer an ENFJ, their heat can be just what is needed to be happy and it can fill the missing piece in an INT*s development.

Frankness, honesty, trust and dignity I think are paramount in a successfull relationhip and an ENFJ may be uniquely equppied to provide these things, assuming the relationship is healthy.

How important would you say subjects like music and art are in the ENFJ/INT* link?

[Domino]

Funny you should mention the art-music connection...

I just got off the phone with my INTP ex-bf (we'll call him "Irish" for brevity's sake) and we were swapping music.

Drove it home to me one of the reasons why I would never feel comfortable dating him again. We have only mild overlap in music, and what I tend to love he hates and vice versa. It's very unpleasant. We can laugh about it because we're friends but as important as music is to me, I absolutely could NOT be with someone who didn't "get" my love for Elvis or Gene Vincent or my core bands.

When I got to "Eddie Cochran", Irish laughed and said "At least my last name's not Cochran...*blech*" I laughed and told him to shut his pie hole. I'm not saying you have to have samey-samey tastes (ick) but I have to have some kismet there. He listens to grunge, neo-metal and the Doors -- all things that tend to rub my fur the wrong way or fail to excite me. I have broad tastes and enjoy just about every genre to some extent, but some things just aren't in my soul.

[Littlelostnf]

Originally Posted by Mysticalrevan

Very insightful!

I can see why an INTJ would prefer an ENFJ, their heat can be just what is needed to be happy and it can fill the missing piece in an INT*s development.

Frankness, honesty, trust and dignity I think are paramount in a successfull relationhip and an ENFJ may be uniquely equppied to provide these things, assuming the relationship is healthy.

How important would you say subjects like music and art are in the ENFJ/INT* link?

I don't think that I need to have the same tastes in music and art as my INT* but I do think the music/art thing is petty important in that link as both types tend to really like both of those things.

I think it's more important to be able to appreciate each others tastes.... while I might not like everything they like I understand why they like it. I tend to have very broad taste when it comes to music. I can remember having an ongoing argument about music with an INTP. I totally could appreciate his music and often enjoyed new music he'd send my way. He on the other hand would have negative things to say about my music. Eventually however it would always happen that he'd come round and wind up really liking (sometimes obsessing) on music that I'd loved forever. Believe it or not I never gloated (No I really didn't ) Actually it was nice to have his approval on music that I liked (even if it took forever) because I really appreciated his opinion...even if I didn't always agree.

As far as art is concerned I know what I like and I really like being exposed to new (old) and new (new) artists and forms of art. I like to be able to discuss it intelligently or even just having a person appreciate that it's not so much an intelletual like of some piece of art for me as it is a "heart" thing.

[Mysticalrevan]

Originally Posted by PinkPiranha

Funny you should mention the art-music connection...

I guess we must be psyche!

Drove it home to me one of the reasons why I would never feel comfortable dating him again. We have only mild overlap in music, and what I tend to love he hates and vice versa. It's very unpleasant.

Sounds like your INTP is very disableable, he needs to learn to be more pragmatic about what he believes and maybe needs to be less judgmental about other people.

We can laugh about it because we're friends but as important as music is to me, I absolutely could NOT be with someone who didn't "get" my love for Elvis or Gene Vincent or my core bands.

I could be interested in what you like, not sure I could recipocate it. What do you like about Elvis or Vincent?

I'm not saying you have to have samey-samey tastes (ick) but I have to have some kismet there.

I think the same thing!

He listens to grunge, neo-metal and the Doors

I love nirvana! not sure what neo-metal is, I've heard of the corrs, but the doors? bearly rings a bell.

all things that tend to rub my fur the wrong way or fail to excite me. I have broad tastes and enjoy just about every genre to some extent, but some things just aren't in my soul.

I would guess that you don't like very aggressive or dark music.
I love nirvana, do you like them?

[Mysticalrevan]

Originally Posted by Littlelostnf

I don't think that I need to have the same tastes in music and art as my INT* but I do think the music/art thing is petty important in that link as both types tend to really like both of those things.

That sounds like a liberal and pragmatic attitude, seems to be common to ENFJs.
I think that it would be very difficult for any thinking - feeling conenction to be made without something universal to communicate through. Music and art are one of the few ways this could happen in a relationship.

I think it's more important to be able to appreciate each others tastes....

I strongly agree!

while I might not like everything they like I understand why they like it.

Exactly!

I totally could appreciate his music and often enjoyed new music he'd send my way. He on the other hand would have negative things to say about my music. Eventually however it would always happen that he'd come round and wind up really liking (sometimes obsessing) on music that I'd loved forever. Believe it or not I never gloated (No I really didn't ) Actually it was nice to have his approval on music that I liked (even if it took forever) because I really appreciated his opinion...even if I didn't always agree.

Sounds like the perfect example of recipocation in a ENFJ-INTP relationship!

As far as art is concerned I know what I like and I really like being exposed to new (old) and new (new) artists and forms of art. I like to be able to discuss it intelligently or even just having a person appreciate that it's not so much an intelletual like of some piece of art for me as it is a "heart" thing

This is exactly what I was hoping for, maybe we should discuss music and art in a separate thread. I'd like to go into this in more detail!

[Domino]

Originally Posted by Littlelostnf

I don't think that I need to have the same tastes in music and art as my INT* but I do think the music/art thing is petty important in that link as both types tend to really like both of those things.

No samey-samey, but definitely in tune. I think my biggest issue is his inability to relate to ANYTHING that chimes with me unless he "makes" it okay with himself first.

I think it's more important to be able to appreciate each others tastes.... while I might not like everything they like I understand why they like it. I tend to have very broad taste when it comes to music. I can remember having an ongoing argument about music with an INTP. I totally could appreciate his music and often enjoyed new music he'd send my way. He on the other hand would have negative things to say about my music. Eventually however it would always happen that he'd come round and wind up really liking (sometimes obsessing) on music that I'd loved forever. Believe it or not I never gloated (No I really didn't ) Actually it was nice to have his approval on music that I liked (even if it took forever) because I really appreciated his opinion...even if I didn't always agree.

This experience isn't unique to me, I see. My INTP said something about big band music like I would have no clue about it (because HE didn't until recently) and I was like "Dude. I've been listening to big band music since I was a kid. Don't even TRY to school me."

As far as art is concerned I know what I like and I really like being exposed to new (old) and new (new) artists and forms of art. I like to be able to discuss it intelligently or even just having a person appreciate that it's not so much an intelletual like of some piece of art for me as it is a "heart" thing.

A heart thing is a perfect way of putting it. One of my favorite people to look at art with was an ISTP. He was SO abstract, existential, free-form. I looked at stuff I never would have on my own and I made him tighten up his definitions, get more from his experience other than what his eyes were telling him. I started to enjoy abstract art because of him (then again, he was a punk at heart too, so we had our core in the same place...)

I could be interested in what you like, not sure I could recipocate it. What do you like about Elvis or Vincent?

Reciprocation is NOT necessary for me. *shakes head* I realize not everything must be the same. That would be dull and phony at any rate. Differences are more than all right. HUGE divergences that strike horribly out of tune aren't okay though. Music is like humor -- it either draws a certain type of people to you or pushes them away.

I was raised in a Southern black "locked door" neighborhood, well below the poverty level, on government assistance, surrounded by violence, hating/loving alcoholic narcissistic bi-polar parents. I expected danger, bodily threat, illness, and constant explosions over money. My friends were from the same class, were self-medicaters, teen mothers, drug dealers, people who drank too much, drag-raced and carried loaded guns in their cars that they were known to use. I did my "growing up" in the 80s and 90s, pretty much forced to when I was too young to be carrying that load.

Irish was raised super-white, in the Midwest, no siblings, no threats other than a million brain-eating miles of corn fields and a power-tripping father. They had no money problems then. No physical illnesses. He had/still has grandparents he was/is close to. He doesn't relate to anyone or anything that isn't white. He had Peter Pan syndrome until recently. You might say he didn't grow up because he didn't have to. He's never had to rebel against anything, and he has no pride of place -- he said the entire state of Oklahoma is such a raggedy mess that it should be burnt down and started over. I get what he's saying, but even as bad off as NC has been, I relate so powerfully to being Carolinian, to being Southern, that I could never imagine wanting to destroy any of it.

I don't begrudge him good memories or a safe place. I begrudged his inability to relate to anyone else.

While we both LIKE some things in common, such as Clutch, Type O and White Zombie, everything else, and I do mean almost literally everything else, is simply... NO. I like just about EVERYTHING and can appreciate music from any genre, but there are certain bands that rub my fur the wrong way, no matter how much I try to listen to them critically. It could be the music itself, the vibe, the off-putting vocals, you name it.

I'll use only one example of what I consider "un-listenable".

Evanescence.

I'd rather be trapped in an elevator with an angry squirrel.

Try as I might, I absolutely CANNOT tolerate the lead singer's voice. She sounds like she's straining air through a wadded up cheese cloth that happens to be permanently lodged in her throat. Everything she sings sounds the same. The notes change but it sounds as if she's singing the same note over and over (like Natalie Maines from the Dixie Chicks...). Plus, I find the music ridiculous. The lyrics, ridiculous. The tone, ridiculous. I like me some moody slinky dark vibes, but this? Manufactured maudlin drippy adolescent trash. It's safe to say that I cannot stand Evanescence and will never be able to "get" it.

[Sorry to anyone I may have just offended.]

When I told him this, Irish gasped and thought I had committed some hideous cardinal sin in such a confession.

He looks at Elvis like a velvet painting.
He tolerates the Clash.
He thinks u2 is "meh".
He hates anything that even vaguely smacks of country or Southern-ness.
He can't relate to "black" music AT ALL.
He waves off Billy Idol and David Bowie.
He's never heard of Gene Vincent.
He's "Echo and the Bunnywho?"
He said "At least my last name's not Cochran..."

Uh. Eddie Cochran.

No you didn't just diss my man, white-bread.

We can laugh about it because we're friends. The conversation never gets ugly and is actually funny because we lean back and point at each other and say "Freak! Freak!" But the dividing line is huge and very clearly demarcated, and I could never date someone like him. (No doubt he feels the same way about me.) I joked dryly, "With every word, I hear my good name ratcheting down in your esteem..." and he laughed, "No, you like what you like. It's alright." "BULL, you space alien," I blurted. He laughed again.

I was raised on big band, classical and my mother's 45s. Mom played the upright piano in the tiny spare room and was into church hymnal music, Johnny Mathis, Roberta Flack, the Chi-Lites, Martha and the Vandellas, the 5th Dimension, etc. Dad was into the Dire Straits, Lynyrd Skynyrd, Eric Clapton, Steppenwolf, etc. We listened to Motown or Grandma's big band 78s while we cleaned the house. We'd open the windows on our little dusty saggy house in the 'hood and Elvis would be blasting out into the yard.

Punk is lower class. Angry. Needy. Bucking wildly. Elevating and self-emolating. Has a history grounded in disenfranchised people. I related to all of this. I related to the drive. To the force. The change. The furious boil. The message. Barely getting by. Being in danger. Fighting to the last drop of blood for meager returns. Watching things fall apart and not being to do anything but kick a hole in a wall. Elvis, to me, in spite of the image built up around him, was a very real, very human, very poor Southern man that related to. He even had a twin. I would see Elvis and hear him sing and cry.

Same thing with Gene Vincent. Caterwauling pain. REAL pain. Not manufactured corporate drippy tripe. Gene was in physical pain constantly from injuries (one of which was sustained in a taxi accident in London that killed Eddie Cochran) and drank to control the pain.

Gene and Elvis and Billy Idol and Eddie Cochran and Johnny Cash et al were exactly like the boys I grew up with, the hard-living, genuine people who loved me and took care of me and enabled me to survive in a harsh unforgiving environment.

The music we listened to kept me sane and ALIVE. Irish doesn't understand that. His entire world when we were teenagers consisted of Alice in Chains, NIN and Nirvana (bands I don't mind). I remember thinking back then (when I didn't even like Nirvana), "What the heck entitles you to such angry music, Irish? What's been so bad about your nearly perfect life to merit this gothy emo atmosphere? Kurt Cobain can be angry and depressed if he wants -- he has anxiety problems and a stomach condition that makes his life unbearable." I felt back then that I understood the heart of his music -- music I didn't like much -- better than he did. He didn't take time to get close to it.

According to our music types, he pretty much disowns everything I am and everything I like. That's kinda sad. I'm everything he can't understand or tolerate. A male ISFJ friend of mine once said in exasperation: "The longer he knows you, Pink, the less he knows you. How is that possible."

I love nirvana! not sure what neo-metal is, I've heard of the corrs, but the doors? bearly rings a bell.

Nirvana was ground-breaking and I totally get the new sound of grunge that made it so big in the 90s. It really WAS new and different. Nirvana was actually intelligent music (if not intelligible, Kurt Mumblemouth! lol) and I continue to really dig Dave Grohl and the Foo Fighters. I didn't like Nirvana back in the 90s because it was EVERYWHERE. Now that it's gone quiet, I can look at it and really appreciate it for what it was and what it still means to people.

I would guess that you don't like very aggressive or dark music.
I love nirvana, do you like them?

Actually, I'm quite morbid, really! hahaha!! Punk music, new wave, I love the Cure, etc.

[Mysticalrevan]

First of all, I love your extra-long post - great!

Reciprocation is NOT necessary for me. *shakes head* I realize not everything must be the same. That would be dull and phony at any rate. Differences are more than all right. HUGE divergences that strike horribly out of tune aren't okay though.

Do you find there is a relation between the agreeiblity between what is shared and the happiness of the relationship?

Its ironic that you can't relate to Evanescence, there one of my favourite bands! lol
I get what your saying though - I find that listening to their music now is a little boring, but lacrymosa is still one of my favourite songs of all time!

I think that comparing Amy Lee to Kurt Cobain - her voice is mostly emotionless - which is aweful. If a plank of wood could sing, it would be Amy Lee, Keanu Reeves Syndrome!

I've heard of some of the bands you've quoted, I never got into them before - maybe I can begin to by talking to you

Is Punk lower class? - Cobain was lower class Seattle.

Punk is lower class. Angry. Needy. Bucking wildly. Elevating and self-emolating. Has a history grounded in disenfranchised people. I related to all of this. I related to the drive. To the force. The change. The furious boil. The message. Barely getting by. Being in danger. Fighting to the last drop of blood for meager returns. Watching things fall apart and not being to do anything but kick a hole in a wall.

Wow, you've just summed up Cobain wonderfully well!

Elvis, to me, in spite of the image built up around him, was a very real, very human, very poor Southern man that related to. He even had a twin. I would see Elvis and hear him sing and cry.

Dark and Light in the same paragraph - I can see your more complex than I originally understood - good thing I'm a learner!

Kurt Cobain can be angry and depressed if he wants -- he has anxiety problems and a stomach condition that makes his life unbearable." I felt back then that I understood the heart of his music -- music I didn't like much -- better than he did. He didn't take time to get close to it.

lol, I think that sometimes as a middle-class person myself, it can be difficult to understand what its like from a lower-class perspective.
Artistically I think I could identify with Cobain - i've suffered plenty of bad things in my life that I think have something in common with the issues of Cobains music - thats why I adore his music so much!

Nirvana was ground-breaking and I totally get the new sound of grunge that made it so big in the 90s. It really WAS new and different. Nirvana was actually intelligent music (if not intelligible, Kurt Mumblemouth! lol) and I continue to really dig Dave Grohl and the Foo Fighters. I didn't like Nirvana back in the 90s because it was EVERYWHERE. Now that it's gone quiet, I can look at it and really appreciate it for what it was and what it still means to people.

Cool, Cobain couldn't stand being famous, it could have been the worsest thing that happened to him because he didn't know how to relate to the audience that was identifing to his music.

Actually, I'm quite morbid, really! hahaha!! Punk music, new wave, I love the Cure, etc

I accept that I was wrong, I thought that a discomfort with darkness was an NF trait but maybe I was wrong. Either your personality is more complex than I originally gave it credit for (ENFJ doesn't sum up completely who you are) or I have alot to learn about ENFJs!

Hope to talk to you soon!

[Domino]

Originally Posted by Mysticalrevan

Do you find there is a relation between the agreeability between what is shared and the happiness of the relationship?

Common interests, I find, as do most people, are essential to maintaining a (more than physical) relationship. There has to be some communal staging area where you both meet, and by "commonality" I mean a similar driving passion. If it's not the same passion, there has to be a commonality or duality between the differing passions or things will NOT work out.

For example, my BIL, before he married my sister, was my best friend for many years. We did everything together. He's an ISTP (with a strong F), my "shadow" for all intents and purposes, so one would think we wouldn't have that much kindred spiritedness. Quite the contrary. We both got amusement out of the same things, hated the same things, debated over the things we didn't agree on (and sometimes the things we DID agree on, as ISTPs are classic examples of Devil's Advocate.) He worked on cars for the act of it and for the results in the end (the fast car that did what he wanted). I liked the social aspect, the team dynamic, the ability to make something work that didn't before.

In school, I named his car "Red Sonja" and it stuck. He wasn't the creative type as such, but he really enjoyed my dragging him into one of my own Technicolor creative outbursts. We'd go to art museums. We'd got to the movies. We'd ramble through book stores. We'd just drive around or amuse ourselves for hours with my half-dead ATARI 2600. Even after I became too unwell to be a mechanic anymore, that was by no means the end of our friendship. We were both interested in each other as evolving humans.

We had common and/or harmonizing interests (not the same as IDENTICAL TASTES) and were sympatico on not pushing each other around. I'd call that relationship one of commonality.

If a plank of wood could sing, it would be Amy Lee, Keanu Reeves Syndrome!

hahahah! That's a great image!

Is Punk lower class? - Cobain was lower class Seattle.

Original punk (read: not neo-punk or corporate garbage passing as punk, like Avril Lavigne) is VERY lower-class. Johnny Rotten's life growing up was Dickensian and grotesque. It's a marvel he's sane as he is. Other people involved in the original punk movement were those who felt disenfranchised from the main stream, people angry about the political climate, people who had no voice, people who didn't connect to the nuclear family or had no family.

Makes sense to me about Cobain. He had the punk attitude, only revamped for a newer climate. Johnny Rotten said that punk was for a limited time period. He thinks "true" punk, as a musical form, has been dead since 1979. He liked Cobain, thought Kurt was a "new thing" and a total waste when he heard Cobain had committed suicide.

Dark and Light in the same paragraph - I can see your more complex than I originally understood - good thing I'm a learner!

My ENFP sister might be a better authority on me than I am. I get a little "forest for the trees" at times.

I think that sometimes as a middle-class person myself, it can be difficult to understand what its like from a lower-class perspective.

Artistically I think I could identify with Cobain - i've suffered plenty of bad things in my life that I think have something in common with the issues of Cobains music - thats why I adore his music so much!

That's the sign of an open mind and a good musical medium. He conveyed his thoughts and feelings successfully if he was able to engage you and get past the barrier of your ears.