Extraverted Sensing - Se vs Si

[PinkPiranha]

I'm having such a problem understanding this (go figure -- as the whole issue of Sensing is like speaking Swahili at me). Sensing is supposed to be my tertiary function, but it is by far the weakest leg holding up my table. Introverted Thinking is fourth process, but is stronger than my tertiary. I have no idea why that would be. And why would Sensing be a tertiary function when I know so many NFJs who GRAPPLE with the physical world?

I'll highlight what I relate to below:

*Se -- Experiencing and noticing the physical world, scanning for visible reactions and relevant data.

Being attracted to and/or distracted by changing external events. Adapting and changing your mind according to the situation. Focusing on facts. Asking lots of questions to get enough information to see the pattern. Going ahead and responding to raw data. Physical self-expression.

*Si -- (my deceiving shadow process) -- Recalling past experiences, remembering detailed data and what it is linked to.

Being heavily influenced by prior experiences. Distrusting new information that doesn't match. Assuming an understanding of a situation because it resembles a prior one. Focusing on facts and stored data. Giving lots of specific, sequential details about something. Rating and making comparison.


I don't seem to notice the world unless it's intruding on me or I'm actively paying attention. Being raised in violence and alcoholism surrounded by a terrible neighborhood has made me overly watchful, but it hasn't bolstered my ability to use what little I have of a Sensing function whatsoever. You'd think it would have. I'm starting to wonder (worry) that I have no connection to my Sensing side at all. My father is this way and he struggles.

Physical self-expression: I dress boldly, but I don't do well with, say, the romantic end of things because the minute I'm made aware of myself, I become too aware and I shut down. My sister is always asking me common sense questions or saying things like "When did you brush your hair?... yesterday?! Brush your hair!" or "Your pants have a hole in them. It's time for new ones" or "You're going to freeze. Put on a coat." Did I notice the hole in my pants? Probably not. Or if I did, I didn't think about it again. I don't notice the lawn needs to be mowed. Or the bills need to be paid. I have to concentrate really hard to remember that stuff, and to approach the physical realm as something other than scary or devouring or flabbergasting.

When a man/woman gives me a compliment, or tells me they think I'm beautiful, I turn into a block. I feel like I have no business drawing such a comment because I feel that divorced from the physical. You know, like an impostor. Not to say I'm awkward. I just NEVER get past being mystified when people notice me or when I'm magically NOT invisible.

My question is: Am I working off of my shadow more than I thought? can anyone PLEASE explain the Se and show me where it exerts any force on me at all?

[Magic Poriferan]

The unfortunate flaw of the MBTI is that it conforms functions in a very arbitrary manner.
This is why we sometimes see people talking about "just the functions".
People want raw functional analysis isntead of the MBTI, because that way their functions could fall in any order.
With a indepedent function test, I suppose some odd individual could even come-out as Ti - Fi - Si - Ni. That possibility is not even remotely afforded by the MBTI.

[Usehername]

I would voice my thoughts, but as an INTJ I feel I have little to no experience with either Se or Si. (Or so my ISFJ mother would imply if she had any interest in MBTI.)

(Seriously. I don't know how Si functions, and I feel Se is very draining for me to do, but other than that...)

[Nocap]

Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan

The unfortunate flaw of the MBTI is that it conforms functions in a very arbitrary manner.
This is why we sometimes see people talking about "just the functions".
People want raw functional analysis isntead of the MBTI, because that way their functions could fall in any order.
With a indepedent function test, I suppose some odd individual could even come-out as Ti - Fi - Si - Ni. That possibility is not even remotely afforded by the MBTI.

Not necessarily. To some degree you're correct. I don't always believe in the traditional Se Ti Fe Ni etc. rigid order, however the first two functions being are always an introverted and extraverted one. One judging, the other percieving.

Ti tries to make a logical structure of the environment. Se and Ne are bound to be employed by Ti, because they gather information from as many angles as possible, unlike Ni and Si which search in depth through only a single angle.

The same is true with an extraverted judgement fitting with introverted perception.

Fe and Si work well together because Fe being object (specifically, relationship) oriented, requires a single train of thought, or else it can't maintain a relationship. Or rather it will try to express affection to everything it comes in contact with. Ni and Si are great to work with Fe, because it keeps the user from over exerting herself. It's much deeper than that... there are nearly possibilities of the manifestations of the combinations, and I can't begin to explain them all.

Te will want a single string of perception because it can again, keep itself focused that way without over exerting.

My cousin even being an extravert had next to no social life throughout high school. The reason? ESTJ with somehow over powered Ne.

Now, Te is the one to form a game plan and set a goal, then make sure it happens. Normally its instructions are given to it by an authority figure (because of Si) or because of some internal revelation (Ni). But not for my unfortunate (or fortunate depending on how you look at it) cousin. He had off the wall Ne coming up with ideas, which were then planned out, and of course completed. It was a strenuous time for him until he was able to develop his Si, which ironically ended up driving him to gain a social life. Fancy that: introverted function tells someone to go make friends.

[pocket lint]

I can't explain it myself.

See if the following exercises are easy for you:

To experience Introverted Sensation:

• Pick a category of object and practice spotting it in a crowded room. Not something easy like a color, something you have to learn how to identify. For example, learn how to recognize cotton and distinguish it from other fabrics, and then try to spot all the cotton garments in a room full of people (or in your closet, if you don't want to embarrass yourself). Alternatively, learn how to identify several species of tree that live in your area, and spend an hour or so walking around identifying each kind of tree that you come across. Other possibilities: models of cars, breeds of dog, categories of differential equation. In other words, through deliberate practice, become an accurate recognizer of specific types of object, so they "jump out at you" in the midst of other things.
• While driving on a long trip (in the U.S.), note all the out-of-state license plates you see. Stay focused. Carefully check every car as it goes by. Notice everything you can about each state's plates: state mottos, colors, placement of text, pictures, any other special differences. For the full effect, write these things down in a log book.
• Do a Where's Waldo? book. (Might be too difficult to really work as an exercise.)

To experience Extraverted Sensation:

• Walk around downtown in a city during the day, when lots of people are around (even a small town will do). Note what gets your attention, and what kind of attention it gets. Just walk around and let things grab your attention. Don't be deliberate. See what's exciting and what's boring. If a place looks exciting, go inside. The second you feel bored, leave and look around for something new. Don't think about this, don't reflect on it as you're doing it, and don't think ahead. Just go with your immediate gut reaction moment by moment--enter or exit the store before you have a chance to entertain a second thought.
• Walk again, and this time note what's grabbing other people's attention. Where's the crowd?
• (An exercise for brave people.) At a party or a bar or some other gathering of people, attract as much attention as you can to yourself. Anything that works is acceptable: feigning a heart attack, dressing better than everyone else there, dressing in a different color than everyone else there, putting a lampshade over your head--whatever works (it doesn't have to be dramatic, though, especially if you're just testing this out). Keep one eye on how much attention you're getting, and what kind of attention. As you try this at different gatherings, practice getting specific kinds of attention: intrigue, fear, disgust, sexual, laughing at you, laughing with you, etc. Cultivate some techniques for gaining specific positive kinds of attention. You will notice that you need to adjust your approach to fit your audience. As you practice, you'll develop a sense for what "plays" and what doesn't.

You should also check out these links:
What does Lenore mean by "sensation"?
Extraverted Sensation
&
Introverted Sensation

[white]

handwriting sample, love?

The danger of sticking so closely to a type is that you'd not necessarily find answers for yourself? You're more than a type.

Before I reply, I'd just want to find out more. .

[cascadeco]

Originally Posted by PinkPiranha

I don't seem to notice the world unless it's intruding on me or I'm actively paying attention. Being raised in violence and alcoholism surrounded by a terrible neighborhood has made me overly watchful, but it hasn't bolstered my ability to use what little I have of a Sensing function whatsoever. You'd think it would have. I'm starting to wonder (worry) that I have no connection to my Sensing side at all. My father is this way and he struggles.

Hmm....I'm a little confused because when you listed the Si and Se functions and bolded what you could relate to, you bolded a fair amount. So I feel like you DO understand and utilize the functions.

I'm wondering if in everyday life though you CHOOSE not to focus on them?

Physical self-expression: I dress boldly, but I don't do well with, say, the romantic end of things because the minute I'm made aware of myself, I become too aware and I shut down. My sister is always asking me common sense questions or saying things like "When did you brush your hair?... yesterday?! Brush your hair!" or "Your pants have a hole in them. It's time for new ones" or "You're going to freeze. Put on a coat." Did I notice the hole in my pants? Probably not. Or if I did, I didn't think about it again. I don't notice the lawn needs to be mowed. Or the bills need to be paid. I have to concentrate really hard to remember that stuff, and to approach the physical realm as something other than scary or devouring or flabbergasting.

When a man/woman gives me a compliment, or tells me they think I'm beautiful, I turn into a block. I feel like I have no business drawing such a comment because I feel that divorced from the physical. You know, like an impostor. Not to say I'm awkward. I just NEVER get past being mystified when people notice me or when I'm magically NOT invisible.

Well, I myself am pretty aware of the clothing/appearance thing, and bills, so I can't really address that.

But regarding the compliment stuff...I guess I don't see that as relating to Se/Si at all?? How you react to a compliment or physical presence seems to me more related to how you perceive yourself (i.e. esteem/confidence?) in relation to others? Well, maybe there is a bit of an S disconnect...because it sounds like you don't really feel like you're part of this world?? Like your mind is somewhere outside of your body and you don't connect the two?? I guess I'm not entirely sure what you're describing.

I guess I've always been pretty aware of the sensory stuff. Which is interesting in itself - there are a few possibilities - either having been raised by a very S mother, so I've been 'conditioned' into paying attention to minute details, OR I am simply pretty balanced between S and N. I don't know. As for the bills, my father trained budgeting and 'responsibility' into me, so I keep track of all the housekeeping things quite well.

For me, Se/Si comes into play with what my interests/hobbies are. As a child, I was very drawn to birds. And much of birding is exclusively Si -- picking up fine details in terms of plumage and vocalizations, and remembering all of this data. This also extends into wildflowers, animals, trees..to a lesser degree. I simply enjoy being able to identify all of it and put a name to each species. Se for me...well, I enjoy being outdoors and being placed in new environments that make my senses come alive -- so I guess I tend to be pretty aware of my surroundings and take pleasure in them - it's a reason I love to travel to see new places and how different cultures live and build their towns/cities, and also why I enjoy being out in nature --just taking every detail, and the whole, all in.

But then there's a lot of stuff I simply don't care about, where I have no desire to pay attention to the details, or accumulate facts, etc.

Do you have any interests or hobbies that are sensory-related? I would think that would be where your Si/Se functions would come alive -- doing things you value and enjoy.

[Jae Rae]

Originally Posted by cascademn

Do you have any interests or hobbies that are sensory-related? I would think that would be where your Si/Se functions would come alive -- doing things you value and enjoy.

Well said. Pink, what about your interest in music?

Jae Rae

[PinkPiranha]

Originally Posted by cascademn

Hmm....I'm a little confused because when you listed the Si and Se functions and bolded what you could relate to, you bolded a fair amount. So I feel like you DO understand and utilize the functions.
I'm wondering if in everyday life though you CHOOSE not to focus on them?

You may be right. Maybe I *do* consciously or unconsciously ignore it. What's confusing me is that I seem to operate -- by knee-jerk impulse -- on things listed predominantly in the Si part than in the Se part? Explaining Sensing to me is like trying to explain math to me. I have to focus every inch of myself to "get" it. I have a weird form of dyslexia that involves numbers; with a good teacher I can go up into the higher registers of math, but the moment I take my eyes off the problems, they evaporate out of my head. I struggle with even the very basics of addition and subtraction. This is the way I feel about Sensing. I take my eyes off of it (which I have a tendency to do anyway without thinking about it) and Poof. Gone.

Well, I myself am pretty aware of the clothing/appearance thing, and bills, so I can't really address that.

I'm only good about it now because of my ESTJ mother and the fact that bills began defaulting when she was sick. That threat to our environment made the bills "real" to me so I haven't let a single one get by me since.

But regarding the compliment stuff...I guess I don't see that as relating to Se/Si at all?? How you react to a compliment or physical presence seems to me more related to how you perceive yourself (i.e. esteem/confidence?) in relation to others? Well, maybe there is a bit of an S disconnect...because it sounds like you don't really feel like you're part of this world?? Like your mind is somewhere outside of your body and you don't connect the two?? I guess I'm not entirely sure what you're describing.

I feel like I'm remotely viewing myself, the body I have, the face, etc. If I'm reminded that I exist in some way that I don't feel equipped to handle (i.e. usually something positive) I freeze up and stand there staring blankly. I go into a clinical internal dialog -- all the ways I have to tell this person that I'm a fake, not human enough. I see people with kids and the clinical internal dialog starts again -- I don't exist because real people can have kids. I don't exist because real people go on vacation. I don't exist because real people like to drink coffee. etc.

My sister and my best friend were always having to spring stuff on me when I was a teenager. I was a tomboy and if something hadn't occurred to me on my own, then the new revelation was inevitably shocking or scary or alien. Like lip liner. Or underwear NOT made of cotton. Or the idea of taking the car and going on a road trip. I'm picking over my environment and comparing it to myself constantly and when something gets past me, it's branded as an intruder. If I have a bad physical experience, my brain logs it as an ambush and it goes on permanent record. That sounds like Si, but I'm not supposed to be Si?

I guess I've always been pretty aware of the sensory stuff. Which is interesting in itself - there are a few possibilities - either having been raised by a very S mother, so I've been 'conditioned' into paying attention to minute details, OR I am simply pretty balanced between S and N. I don't know. As for the bills, my father trained budgeting and 'responsibility' into me, so I keep track of all the housekeeping things quite well.

I wish I had your father.

And it's not so hard for my sister either. She has a low-level very functional S. I appear to have ZERO, like dear old dad who staggers through life only with the aid of a Senser spouse. He's creative but very impractical and not great with money. He seems to do the "bad experience" record logging that I do. Things have to be made real to him or he doesn't get it. I'm not as bad, but I'm close. I think my moderate extroversion spares me somewhat.

For me, Se/Si comes into play with what my interests/hobbies are. As a child, I was very drawn to birds. And much of birding is exclusively Si -- picking up fine details in terms of plumage and vocalizations, and remembering all of this data. This also extends into wildflowers, animals, trees..to a lesser degree. I simply enjoy being able to identify all of it and put a name to each species. Se for me...well, I enjoy being outdoors and being placed in new environments that make my senses come alive -- so I guess I tend to be pretty aware of my surroundings and take pleasure in them - it's a reason I love to travel to see new places and how different cultures live and build their towns/cities, and also why I enjoy being out in nature --just taking every detail, and the whole, all in.

But then there's a lot of stuff I simply don't care about, where I have no desire to pay attention to the details, or accumulate facts, etc.

Do you have any interests or hobbies that are sensory-related? I would think that would be where your Si/Se functions would come alive -- doing things you value and enjoy.

I would walk through a day noting it was pleasantly rainy/sunny/etc but not feel like I belong in it. It's the separation thing. And I can be oblivious of the environment unless something is pressing itself into my overly-acute senses (thanks, lupus). Smells, sounds, hot/cold, taste, all in Technicolor.

I used to have moments of real connection when I still rode horses. My horse was part of me. I think he was so much a part of me because he took good care of me and reflected my internal nature. Had he been a sheep or a cow or something, I doubt I would have connected to him so powerfully.

Originally Posted by Jae Rae

Well said. Pink, what about your interest in music?

Jae Rae

Really? Does that count? (If so, then yay for me. I'm not as hapless as I thought.)

Originally Posted by aelan

handwriting sample, love?

I'll seriously get on that.

Originally Posted by pocket lint

I can't explain it myself...

Thank you!

Originally Posted by Usehername

I would voice my thoughts, but as an INTJ I feel I have little to no experience with either Se or Si. (Or so my ISFJ mother would imply if she had any interest in MBTI.)

(Seriously. I don't know how Si functions, and I feel Se is very draining for me to do, but other than that...)

I'm not alone in my confounded state! yay!

Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan

The unfortunate flaw of the MBTI is that it conforms functions in a very arbitrary manner.
This is why we sometimes see people talking about "just the functions".
People want raw functional analysis isntead of the MBTI, because that way their functions could fall in any order.
With a indepedent function test, I suppose some odd individual could even come-out as Ti - Fi - Si - Ni. That possibility is not even remotely afforded by the MBTI.

So I may be responding to a flaw in the system?

[Gabe]

Originally Posted by PinkPiranha

I'm having such a problem understanding this (go figure -- as the whole issue of Sensing is like speaking Swahili at me). Sensing is supposed to be my tertiary function, but it is by far the weakest leg holding up my table. Introverted Thinking is fourth process, but is stronger than my tertiary. I have no idea why that would be. And why would Sensing be a tertiary function when I know so many NFJs who GRAPPLE with the physical world?

I'll highlight what I relate to below:

*Se -- Experiencing and noticing the physical world, scanning for visible reactions and relevant data.

Being attracted to and/or distracted by changing external events. Adapting and changing your mind according to the situation. Focusing on facts. Asking lots of questions to get enough information to see the pattern. Going ahead and responding to raw data. Physical self-expression.

*Si -- (my deceiving shadow process) -- Recalling past experiences, remembering detailed data and what it is linked to.

Being heavily influenced by prior experiences. Distrusting new information that doesn't match. Assuming an understanding of a situation because it resembles a prior one. Focusing on facts and stored data. Giving lots of specific, sequential details about something. Rating and making comparison.


I don't seem to notice the world unless it's intruding on me or I'm actively paying attention. Being raised in violence and alcoholism surrounded by a terrible neighborhood has made me overly watchful, but it hasn't bolstered my ability to use what little I have of a Sensing function whatsoever. You'd think it would have. I'm starting to wonder (worry) that I have no connection to my Sensing side at all. My father is this way and he struggles.

Physical self-expression: I dress boldly, but I don't do well with, say, the romantic end of things because the minute I'm made aware of myself, I become too aware and I shut down. My sister is always asking me common sense questions or saying things like "When did you brush your hair?... yesterday?! Brush your hair!" or "Your pants have a hole in them. It's time for new ones" or "You're going to freeze. Put on a coat." Did I notice the hole in my pants? Probably not. Or if I did, I didn't think about it again. I don't notice the lawn needs to be mowed. Or the bills need to be paid. I have to concentrate really hard to remember that stuff, and to approach the physical realm as something other than scary or devouring or flabbergasting.

When a man/woman gives me a compliment, or tells me they think I'm beautiful, I turn into a block. I feel like I have no business drawing such a comment because I feel that divorced from the physical. You know, like an impostor. Not to say I'm awkward. I just NEVER get past being mystified when people notice me or when I'm magically NOT invisible.

My question is: Am I working off of my shadow more than I thought? can anyone PLEASE explain the Se and show me where it exerts any force on me at all?

Y'know, if you are considering that you are a different type, I'll ride that train with you, because what you are describing DOES sound a lot like inferior ("aspirational") sensing.
"the minute I'm made aware of myself I shut down" for example. I remember watching a video of me skiing and all I could think about was how silly and ungracefull I looked!
Now about how you take (or don't take) compliments. What is your reaction? Are you unable to think of something to say in return? The way you describe it right now, it sounds like it might very well be an introverted feeling reaction (Fi is very awkward around compliments).
Now as for which sensing attitude is your inferior, I suggest you ignore the discriptions you've copied, because they are lousy.
Instead, try signing into amazon.com and reading the two passages about inferior sensating in Psychotherapy, by Marie Louis Von Franz (she personally worked with Jung). Search "inferior sensation of the introverted/extraverted intuition type"
Also, read the part of John Beebe's article on psychological type where he talks about his inferior introverted sensing.

typeinsights.com/FreeArticles/Evolvingthe8functionmodel.pdf

By the way, with inferior sensing, you have the following types: INFJ, INTJ, ENTP, ENFP

By the way, I'm already leaning towards inferior introverted sensing by what you've described.