Extraverted Sensing - Se vs Si

[Littlelostnf]

Originally Posted by PinkPiranha

I'm having such a problem understanding this (go figure -- as the whole issue of Sensing is like speaking Swahili at me). Sensing is supposed to be my tertiary function, but it is by far the weakest leg holding up my table. Introverted Thinking is fourth process, but is stronger than my tertiary. I have no idea why that would be. And why would Sensing be a tertiary function when I know so many NFJs who GRAPPLE with the physical world?

I'll highlight what I relate to below:

*Se -- Experiencing and noticing the physical world, scanning for visible reactions and relevant data.

Being attracted to and/or distracted by changing external events. Adapting and changing your mind according to the situation. Focusing on facts. Asking lots of questions to get enough information to see the pattern. Going ahead and responding to raw data. Physical self-expression.

*Si -- (my deceiving shadow process) -- Recalling past experiences, remembering detailed data and what it is linked to.

Being heavily influenced by prior experiences. Distrusting new information that doesn't match. Assuming an understanding of a situation because it resembles a prior one. Focusing on facts and stored data. Giving lots of specific, sequential details about something. Rating and making comparison.


I don't seem to notice the world unless it's intruding on me or I'm actively paying attention. Being raised in violence and alcoholism surrounded by a terrible neighborhood has made me overly watchful, but it hasn't bolstered my ability to use what little I have of a Sensing function whatsoever. You'd think it would have. I'm starting to wonder (worry) that I have no connection to my Sensing side at all. My father is this way and he struggles.

Physical self-expression: I dress boldly, but I don't do well with, say, the romantic end of things because the minute I'm made aware of myself, I become too aware and I shut down. My sister is always asking me common sense questions or saying things like "When did you brush your hair?... yesterday?! Brush your hair!" or "Your pants have a hole in them. It's time for new ones" or "You're going to freeze. Put on a coat." Did I notice the hole in my pants? Probably not. Or if I did, I didn't think about it again. I don't notice the lawn needs to be mowed. Or the bills need to be paid. I have to concentrate really hard to remember that stuff, and to approach the physical realm as something other than scary or devouring or flabbergasting.

When a man/woman gives me a compliment, or tells me they think I'm beautiful, I turn into a block. I feel like I have no business drawing such a comment because I feel that divorced from the physical. You know, like an impostor. Not to say I'm awkward. I just NEVER get past being mystified when people notice me or when I'm magically NOT invisible.

My question is: Am I working off of my shadow more than I thought? can anyone PLEASE explain the Se and show me where it exerts any force on me at all?

According to the cog processing test and just my general observations about myself, I am using my Se in a fairly good way. Unlike you I am often quite aware of and experiencing and noticing the physical world, I am very much attracted to and distracted by changing external evens and I respond very quickly to those changes. I don't ness ask lots of questions to get information...I ask questions to clarify the information I've taken in.

As far as physical self-expression goes I also do this...example...so many examples of this.

I wish I had time to explain..when I come home from work I will...leaving early today to get some paperwork off my desk so I can actually teach today.

[Domino]

Thanks, babe. Take your time.

[Littlelostnf]

Originally Posted by PinkPiranha

Thanks, babe. Take your time.

Ok so I woke myself up at 4:30 this morning and I can’t go back to sleep. I might as well answer this question that I promised I would answer almost 10 days ago. (GOOD GRIEF) Hmmm extraverted sensing. It’s defined over at cognitiveprocess.com as:

Extraverted Sensing occurs when we become aware of what is in the physical world in rich detail. We may be drawn to act on what we experience to get an immediate result. We notice relevant facts and occurrences in a sea of data and experiences, learning all the facts we can about the immediate context or area of focus and what goes on in that context. An active seeking of more and more input to get the whole picture may occur until all sources of input have been exhausted or something else captures our attention. Extraverted Sensing is operating when we freely follow exciting physical impulses or instincts as they come up and enjoy the thrill of action in the present moment. A oneness with the physical world and a total absorption may exist as we move, touch, and sense what is around us. The process involves instantly reading cues to see how far we can go in a situation and still get the impact we want or respond to the situation with presence

A good example of this for me would be when I’m snowboarding. I look around me when I’m at the top of the mountain and the way I board is in response to the physical world around me. Responding quickly to the changes in the conditions, reacting to the actual day be it bright and sunny or if it’s snowing, windy, whatever. I also board with music and for me it’s almost always like being in my own private music video or boarding movie scene. Also my response to music or being around people dancing. The way I cook is a really good example of Se also. If I want a dish to come out the same as the last time I did it I have to work really hard because I cook according to where I am and what’s going on at the time. (I was going to say how I feel..so maybe this is Si..nah it’s really more about my surroundings when I’m cooking)

Wow I just got super tired again..back to bed. If you want more examples Pink I’ll think of some when I wake up (in another 10 days)

[Athenian200]

Originally Posted by PinkPiranha

I suppose I just feel rather demoralized about not being more "physical" or "manifest" because that seems to be the currency of the world. I'm not to the point of defenestrating myself or anything, just frustrated. When anything eludes me, it turns into a bit of a earwig, drives me nuts. Must be my J grabbing on and vivisecting the hell out a personal enigma.

You sound a bit stressed... you're getting very articulate. Anyway, are you sure you're an ENFJ? I've heard some INFJ's seem very extraverted, although I'm definitely not one of them. I must admit, it seems strange to me that you would be able to be out and around people so much, and still have trouble focusing on the physical environment. That's one of the reasons I'm too afraid to be out socializing, because I'm worried random things might happen too fast that I can't deal with. I'm afraid I would look so awkward if something happened, and I stood there too long or moved sluggishly or the wrong way at first in response, perhaps having to ask what was even going on when most people would just "get it." Also, it freaks me out that people move around so fast and are so loud. If it weren't for that, I could be around people more.

Just remember that you have strengths related to understanding ideas that a lot of people don't have. You don't have to be like everyone else in order to be valuable. Also, I tend to feel invisible a lot as well, although in my case, I usually am. Sometimes I want to say something to someone, and I feel like I'm saying it, but they're not hearing it. It's almost like that movie where the ghost had to "focus" themselves into existence in order to affect the physical world. I also seem to be able to walk past large numbers of people without being noticed... it seems like only very perceptive people tend to notice me.

[Domino]

Originally Posted by athenian200

You sound a bit stressed...

You don't know how right you are. I've come to understand that the levels of stress I live with are unacceptable, by most peoples' standards as well as mine, and I have yet to figure out how to find and hit the OFF switch. It's no good for me this way though. You're correct.

you're getting very articulate. Anyway, are you sure you're an ENFJ? I've heard some INFJ's seem very extraverted, although I'm definitely not one of them.

This has been a big question lately. I know my father, without a doubt, is an INFJ, but he's very introverted so he's not hard to type. My uncle, his brother, is an ENTJ. I seem to fall between them - forceful, like my uncle, but incredibly sensitive like my father. I'm an eerie match for my dad sometimes in many tangible and intangible aspects.

My ENFP twin, who is easily more extroverted than me, and I have come to the decision that I must be absolutely borderline. I throw in with E because that's more the way I am when not under pressure, but I'm still entirely too receding to be a hard E. For lack of a better term, I seem to be an E by default, like my brain chose it over I for no apparent reason and without strong conviction about its choice.

I have another question: Do you think it's possible for identical twins, who usually have just one letter difference at most, could be an ENFP-INFJ pair? I've always seen us as ENFP-eNFJ, but I could be losing the forest for the trees here.

I must admit, it seems strange to me that you would be able to be out and around people so much, and still have trouble focusing on the physical environment.

I agree. It is a little weird. I would think I was totally broken in the head if I didn't mimic my father so much in this aspect. If I didn't have him as an example, I'd be compelled to think there was something the matter with me.

That's one of the reasons I'm too afraid to be out socializing, because I'm worried random things might happen too fast that I can't deal with. I'm afraid I would look so awkward if something happened, and I stood there too long or moved sluggishly or the wrong way at first in response, perhaps having to ask what was even going on when most people would just "get it." Also, it freaks me out that people move around so fast and are so loud. If it weren't for that, I could be around people more.

This sounds very much like the description of a true Introvert. I can't see myself in there, though I do nurse some strong urges to pull back and to avoid crowds. This borderline thing is making me kind of nuts. *laughs*

Just remember that you have strengths related to understanding ideas that a lot of people don't have. You don't have to be like everyone else in order to be valuable. Also, I tend to feel invisible a lot as well, although in my case, I usually am. Sometimes I want to say something to someone, and I feel like I'm saying it, but they're not hearing it. It's almost like that movie where the ghost had to "focus" themselves into existence in order to affect the physical world. I also seem to be able to walk past large numbers of people without being noticed... it seems like only very perceptive people tend to notice me.

Being invisible. Hmm. An N affliction it seems, and more concentrated on the I's. That's been an affliction of mine too - in my case, getting no attention when I need it, or getting heaps of BAD attention which I absolutely do NOT NEED. I spent days at a time feeling either transparent and voiceless or painted up like a target.

You know, Athenian, when you tested your aura and it came out Crystal - do you think there could be a correlation there? I'm very curious now.

[quietgirl]

Originally Posted by PinkPiranha

This has been a big question lately. I know my father, without a doubt, is an INFJ, but he's very introverted so he's not hard to type. My uncle, his brother, is an ENTJ. I seem to fall between them - forceful, like my uncle, but incredibly sensitive like my father. I'm an eerie match for my dad sometimes in many tangible and intangible aspects.

My ENFP twin, who is easily more extroverted than me, and I have come to the decision that I must be absolutely borderline. I throw in with E because that's more the way I am when not under pressure, but I'm still entirely too receding to be a hard E. For lack of a better term, I seem to be an E by default, like my brain chose it over I for no apparent reason and without strong conviction about its choice.

This sounds very much like the description of a true Introvert. I can't see myself in there, though I do nurse some strong urges to pull back and to avoid crowds. This borderline thing is making me kind of nuts. *laughs*

If it helps any...

I'm an introvert who honestly enjoys being around people. I think they are fascinating and can hold my own in most conversations. I enjoy going out with friends and my ENFP best friend & I have had many many fun, wild sort of nights. I'm also super direct and tend to say what's on my mind. I've been called opinionated by more than one person! I do attribute a lot of the socialization to hanging out with my ENFP best friend, especially the years we were roommates - but I honestly don't mind it. Hell, I met my boyfriend at a bar! Probably not a typical introvert move. I also am constantly striving for a connection with people, so plenty of friends have been surprised to find out that I am introverted (and are also confused when I need my recharge time).

How do I know I'm a true introvert?

I am absolutely EXHAUSTED after periods of socialization. I tend to need plenty of recharge time before and afterwards. People DO NOT energize me, though I don't have much of a problem interacting with them. I am energized by being alone. I also think about what I say before saying it, for the most part (though if I'm stressed, I'll sometimes blurt stuff out). I'm also not a fan of crowds and loathe attention being brought to myself. I prefer one on one conversations when I'm out & about instead of talking to group of people. In fact, I have a lot of trouble addressing multiple people at once. If I am not prodded to be social or trying to connect with someone, I do tend to stay on the quiet side - simply because I have nothing to say and I have no problem with not talking. I don't talk just to talk or fill silence. I talk when I have something to say.

There's a stereotype that introverts dislike people and spend all of their time alone & I'm totally not that sort of introvert. However, I don't have a doubt in my mind that I have preferences for introversion.

[lazyhappy]

I'm having such a problem understanding this (go figure -- as the whole issue of Sensing is like speaking Swahili at me). Sensing is supposed to be my tertiary function, but it is by far the weakest leg holding up my table. Introverted Thinking is fourth process, but is stronger than my tertiary

maybe your more I then you thought... INFJ's functions are Ni-Fe-Ti-Se

and about your Si dilemma, i don't know... maybe your more p then you thought- enfp's 4th function is Si... but then you would have to be Te...
you would have all Fe, Si and Ti if you were a ENTP:
Dominant: Extraverted Intuition
Auxiliary: Introverted Thinking
Tertiary: Extraverted Feeling
Inferior: Introverted Sensing

it's alot different then a enfj though...
i dont know..

damn... the mbti theory is so confusing and so aggrivating at times, thier are so many holes in it, it's annoying

[Athenian200]

Originally Posted by PinkPiranha

You don't know how right you are. I've come to understand that the levels of stress I live with are unacceptable, by most peoples' standards as well as mine, and I have yet to figure out how to find and hit the OFF switch. It's no good for me this way though. You're correct.

Do you feel like you're constantly living up to other people's standards/expectations rather than doing what you want to do? Just curious.

My ENFP twin, who is easily more extroverted than me, and I have come to the decision that I must be absolutely borderline. I throw in with E because that's more the way I am when not under pressure, but I'm still entirely too receding to be a hard E. For lack of a better term, I seem to be an E by default, like my brain chose it over I for no apparent reason and without strong conviction about its choice.

Actually, I act fairly "E" when I'm not under pressure either. It's just that in my case, I can't get away from pressure and I've had little opportunity to have social experience, so I feel very "I." I can converse for hours with a small group of people I feel comfortable with, and still be sad when they leave. I've also spent hours talking on the phone. The problem for me is being outside, being around crowds. I've always thought of "E's" as people who could handle crowds and feel energized. I can deal with crowds if I have to, but I look a little awkward, feel drained, and usually want to leave after a few hours.

I have another question: Do you think it's possible for identical twins, who usually have just one letter difference at most, could be an ENFP-INFJ pair? I've always seen us as ENFP-eNFJ, but I could be losing the forest for the trees here.

Of course... it would make you one another's "shadows" according to one theory. You would have all the functions in the same order, but in the opposite direction. Like this:

Ni Fe Ti Se

Ne Fi Te Si

This sounds very much like the description of a true Introvert. I can't see myself in there, though I do nurse some strong urges to pull back and to avoid crowds. This borderline thing is making me kind of nuts. *laughs*

That's an Introvert. Someone who wants to avoid crowds, not necessarily someone who does avoid them. I could deal with them almost all the time if I had to, I would just feel like rushed, irritable, and generally crappy all the time inside even if I were acting okay. I just figure it's not worth it when I can talk to people more meaningfully online or on the phone anyway with less hassle. And of course it certainly doesn't mean I never want to socialize at all as much as it means I don't want to do it frequently... if I had friends who wanted to go anywhere with me and I didn't have a particular situational stress source that really inhibits me, I'd probably go places between twice a week, and once every two weeks, depending on my mood/energy.

You know, Athenian, when you tested your aura and it came out Crystal - do you think there could be a correlation there? I'm very curious now.

There could be... but I'm not sure an online test is accurate at reading auras, or if auras themselves are accurate. I don't know what the meaning of it would be, though.

[Littlelostnf]

Originally Posted by athenian200

The problem for me is being outside, being around crowds. I've always thought of "E's" as people who could handle crowds and feel energized. I can deal with crowds if I have to, but I look a little awkward, feel drained, and usually want to leave after a few hours.

I'm an ENFJ and I very much feel drained after dealing with crowds. I live near the city and I DREAD going in at Xmas time. Were some people thrive off the energy the HORDES of people give off, it simply overwhelms me. I have a vistor coming today from overseas and we'll be making multiple trips into the city. I'm going to be exhausted mentally.

That's an Introvert. Someone who wants to avoid crowds, not necessarily someone who does avoid them. I could deal with them almost all the time if I had to, I would just feel like rushed, irritable, and generally crappy all the time inside even if I were acting okay. I just figure it's not worth it when I can talk to people more meaningfully online or on the phone anyway with less hassle. And of course it certainly doesn't mean I never want to socialize at all as much as it means I don't want to do it frequently... if I had friends who wanted to go anywhere with me and I didn't have a particular situational stress source that really inhibits me, I'd probably go places between twice a week, and once every two weeks, depending on my mood/energy.

I HATE the phone I hate texting the only thing I can seem to do for hours is im and even that has to be a really interesting convo to keep me going. I get in social moods where I want to be doing things and then there are weeks when all I want is me my couch and a good book or occasionally a movie.

I think I've said this WAY the heck to many times but people seem to think that the Fe part of an ENFJ means they are social and out there and wanting to be with people all the time. Not true. I'd rather observe people than actually socialize with them. I can. I'm rather good at it. People want me at their parties because I can and do push myself out there and I'm generally either helping out or helping entertain the other guests but if they'd let me alone I'd be more than happy and happier to just sit back and observe. I enjoy making people happy and making them laugh but I'd rather make them think. I think Kiersey had it right when he said that while and ESFJ is a social hostest and ENFJ is more concerned with the growth aspect of a person.

[Athenian200]

Originally Posted by Littlelostnf

I'm an ENFJ and I very much feel drained after dealing with crowds. I live near the city and I DREAD going in at Xmas time. Were some people thrive off the energy the HORDES of people give off, it simply overwhelms me. I have a vistor coming today from overseas and we'll be making multiple trips into the city. I'm going to be exhausted mentally.

That's not my understanding of Extraversion. What is your reason for thinking you are an Extravert? It's not that I don't believe you, I just really don't understand it. I've always assumed "E" meant less easily stimulated by noise/movement and thus able to handle more interaction/activity.

I HATE the phone I hate texting the only thing I can seem to do for hours is im and even that has to be a really interesting convo to keep me going. I get in social moods where I want to be doing things and then there are weeks when all I want is me my couch and a good book or occasionally a movie.

I don't like texting either (partially because of the inconvenient input method and partially because I can't do it), but I'm comfortable with talking on the phone (my home phone, I don't own one of those cellular telephone things) whenever it rings, and I often leave my computer on with the speakers up so I can get IM's while I'm sleeping if I think someone might contact me... I don't want anyone I know online to feel neglected.

I think I've said this WAY the heck to many times but people seem to think that the Fe part of an ENFJ means they are social and out there and wanting to be with people all the time. Not true. I'd rather observe people than actually socialize with them. I can. I'm rather good at it. People want me at their parties because I can and do push myself out there and I'm generally either helping out or helping entertain the other guests but if they'd let me alone I'd be more than happy and happier to just sit back and observe. I enjoy making people happy and making them laugh but I'd rather make them think. I think Kiersey had it right when he said that while and ESFJ is a social hostest and ENFJ is more concerned with the growth aspect of a person.

It's not the Fe that makes people think that. It's the Exxx part. The idea is that generally, Extraverts are all those really cool, social people who have tans, go to all the loud parties, and travel frequently. Introverts are usually the paler ones who like to sit at home and read/daydream in their spare time, and maybe go somewhere with a friend occasionally because they were expected to. Obviously most people fall between those extremes, but you usually have a preference for one or the other to some degree... enough that you notice it.