Good Person = Feeler??

[substitute]

LONG POST - skip to the bold part at the end if you want to just get to the point!

So a couple of weeks ago I started trying to distance myself from some people who were a bit of a pain in the ass (ENFJ and INTP). Things didn't go as planned, despite my great efforts to combine honesty and integrity with tact and genteness. And before I knew it, I had various people on my back about how 'nasty' I am. All I in fact said was (and I quote): "TBH mate, you two have been getting on my nerves a bit lately. I don't hate you and I'm not saying I don't want to still be friends or anything, I just think we should take a step back from each other for a bit and give each other some breathing space, or we're gonna end up really fighting. If you wanna see the kids though, that's cool - just let me know and you can pick them up whenever."

The part about the kids is because it's this couple who've been trying for kids for years but can't have them, so I let them get their 'kid fix' by playing with my two daughters. Serves both our purposes - theirs, and also gives me some peace and a break from the kids sometimes.

The INTP pouted considerably, but kept it mostly to himself. But the ENFJ decided to start publicly crying out against my "cruelty", telling people how devastated, betrayed and hurt she felt by this friend "cutting her dead", and how she could "never see such vibrant children" any more. And you'd be amazed (well, I was) how many people just believed her, and started getting on my back, saying how cold and mean and evil I am.

Next thing I know, my sister's (ENFJ) asserting a theory to anyone who'll listen, that I'm either autistic or pure evil, based on the fact that when someone pisses me off, I tell them so and explain why, which she sees as 'being mean'. She says she's convinced I must be "a little bit autistic" because I "don't notice other people's feelings and say such mean things all the time", and that she prefers to think of me that way because in her words "the only other explanation is that you're evil and full of hatred" - she thinks she's being generous in theorizing that because I can't please her all the time, I'm either mentally ill, or pure evil!!

And then my mom's (ESFJ) getting in on the act too, saying how I've always been such a "cold fish" and how even as a kid I was "like a robot".

Now, I have great relationships/friendships with a large number of people, and have never had any trouble from/with any of them. I tend to hear people reporting back to me with good things that others have said about me around once per week, on average. I've had my autistic daughter's shrink writing reports to her school saying that my "intuitive grasp of others' needs" makes me the perfect parent for her, and that if every parent was as understanding, adaptable and accommodating as me his job would be much easier.

I can go on long vacations with friends and everyone has a great time, and I'm always invited back. I'm pretty much on most people I know's A list when it comes to inviting people to things. One of the reasons for this, people keep on telling me, is that they see me as a good person, someone who helps people out all the time and tries to do the right thing by everyone as much as possible, and among other things, this makes me fun to be with.

HOWEVER, thinking about it, 90% of the people I get on without any trouble with, are Thinkers of some sort. A few are not - all xxFP's. But of those who have this fixed and ancient opinion of me being cold, mean, evil, nasty and possibly mentally ill, they're ALL Feelers. In fact, they're all xxFJ's.

It seems that in their opinion, in order for someone to be a 'good person', they have to be a Feeler. They have to think as they do, and set as much store by their and others' emotions as these NJ's do. There seems to be no room in their world at all for the idea of someone being a good person, despite being unsentimental and unemotional.

I've tried everything I can to get through to them - I've even used Data the android as an example of a 'person' who is good and lovable despite being void of emotion or awareness of others' emotions. But it seems that the only way in which they're willing to concede this is by saying that he 'does good things', but cannot be a good person, because the good things he does are "not done out of true empathy".

In short, all the FJ's I know seem to demonstrate an attitude that presumes the only true good in the world is the result of pure empathy, and that without empathy, no good is possible. Therefore, it seems to be their view, most people with a strong Thinking preference are at best, evil people who might be able to 'resist' evil and appear good, by imitating Feeler behaviour.

And I'm sick of being judged all the fucking time like this. So, Feelers, your advice?

[prplchknz]

I don't think I'm a good person. I've learn to ignore the people who think less then me especially if it's about something that I don't think makes me a bad person. I'm really bad at fighting so no matter what I say it usually gets turned around and I'm the bad person. I've always acted like the scape goat, because I really don't care and just gotten use to being blamed for things.

I hate when people publicly cried, and I'm sure I've done that before but I try not to. I mentally stop myself and convince myself that it's not fair to the other person.

I really don't know my best advice is too try and ignore them knowing that, these other people don't know the situation.

Ooh if you watch Dexter you can use him as an example as well. Yes he does kill people but only ones who deserve to die, and he
helps non-criminals. Though some people frown on serial killers in general, so maybe not.

Oh and that thing you've said to her sounds like something similar I've said to people in the past. I let them get mad and upset at me, but I somehow manage to make them feel better. But on the otherside of the comment I can see how it can be misinterpreted as "I hate you, you suck!!" I normally keep my mouth shut.

[Jennifer]

I don't have an issue with what you said... but I am an evil Thinker.

(Sorry to be redundant.)

But I would have probably cushioned the initial comment a great deal more, depending on how well I knew your friends, in order to protect against this very thing. I could see it coming, when I read what you said. (Your comments were balanced, fair, rational, and understandable, and very explicit about your intentions/expectations... in short, perfect for a T to deal with... but they had about nil emotional quotient to them that would cushion the slap.)

[substitute]

Well, if anything, it shows why NT's have to be arrogant sometimes... I mean, if I wasn't arrogant, then by now I'd be living in self-loathing-ville with my own villa and golf range!

You know, it's like you take so much beating from others judging you like this all the time, that if you didn't have a strong and sure opinion of yourself as good and worthwhile as a person (which is what many call arrogance), then you really would just crumple under all these assaults on your character.

[wolfmaiden14]

Perhaps they're just blocked by their own view of the world. (Strange for an empathetic type. >.>) I know the general reason for us doing what we do is because if someone is sad, we are sad, if someone is happy, we are happy. Perhaps they believe because a T might not have that deeper empathetic connection to their actions results, then they are just being fake.

I'd just remind these people that one can never make EVERYONE happy, and therefore those who can be more detached and rational may indeed end up working for the greater good by collecting and deciphering all the facts and coming up with a solution that will suit the most people, or be better at making impartial snap decisions that will save some whereas bleeding hearts would paralyze everyone. This shows a genuine concern for all peoples, not just deep empathy for a favored few. It takes this so-called "devoid of emotion-ness" to handle the greater good sometimes.

I refer you to this: www.flipsidecomics.com page of a webcomic

Plus you can always throw it back by saying how cold and callous they're being by making you feel so awful about yourself when you're being honest and tactful, when they're supposed to be your friend too. Guilt works wonders on NFs. (Though I never really support manipulation like that. ><)

[cascadeco]

Now, if I met you in person I just might feel the same way as the others ...haha..but...

Based on what you've written, I find few 'Good Person' qualities in your friends either -- publicly denouncing you. So, in my book, I find your friends' behavior to be equally 'mean', and, well, immature.

I don't find their feelings of being hurt as immature - I'd probably FEEL the same way - but I never publically rip on people. It's because I know my perception of them is just MY perception, and others very well won't agree with me. I don't feel I have the right to push my own perceptions onto other people. I want other people to come to their own conclusions of people they meet, and make their own judgements.

I agree w/ Jennifer though that the wording you used did not really set yourself up for a favorable reaction. :-)

I just don't get the extroverting piece of it, and can't relate to that at all...that would be quite 'mean' in my book, which is why I don't do it. Even when I've had fallouts with friends, I don't start telling everyone that my ex-friend sucks...I usually just say it didn't work out, we were too different, I could see her side of the story too..etc.

[substitute]

Originally Posted by prplchknz

I'm really bad at fighting so no matter what I say it usually gets turned around and I'm the bad person. I've always acted like the scape goat, because I really don't care and just gotten use to being blamed for things.

But... but... but ENTP's can't just accept stuff like this. It's part of our nature to belieeeeve that things can be changed, they can be improved - misunderstandings can be cleared up, problems can be solved - any two things no matter how different and opposing can be reconciled - anything is possible! If I just gave up and started accepting that things suck and there's nothing I can do about it, I'd whither and die!!!

Oh and that thing you've said to her sounds like something similar I've said to people in the past. I let them get mad and upset at me, but I somehow manage to make them feel better. But on the otherside of the comment I can see how it can be misinterpreted as "I hate you, you suck!!" I normally keep my mouth shut.

I don't know how I could've put it any other way without having to be dishonest. I was already stretching the truth quite a ways already, by implying I was concerned that we shouldn't end up fighting all the time... in fact I just wanted them out of my face for a bit! But, knowing they'd find that hurtful (ruling out autism) and not wanting to hurt them (ruling out evil), I tried to cushion it a bit. To me, that was cushioned!!!

[cafe]

Doesn't everybody have people that will say stupid crap like that about them? Even as an FJ I've have people believe the nonsense my mother says about me, including that I'm cold, vindictive, crazy (the list goes on). People just say that kind of thing when they are not getting their way or are hurt or upset, etc. It sucks, but there you go.

[Jennifer]

Originally Posted by substitute

...But, knowing they'd find that hurtful (ruling out autism) and not wanting to hurt them (ruling out evil), I tried to cushion it a bit. To me, that was cushioned!!!

...Oh my.

Originally Posted by cascadenm

Based on what you've written, I find few 'Good Person' qualities in your friends either -- publicly denouncing you. So, in my book, I find your friends' behavior to be equally 'mean', and, well, immature.

I don't find their feelings of being hurt as immature - I'd probably FEEL the same way - but I never publically rip on people. It's because I know my perception of them is just MY perception, and others very well won't agree with me. I don't feel I have the right to push my own perceptions onto other people. I want other people to come to their own conclusions of people they meet, and make their own judgements.

I just don't get the extroverting piece of it, and can't relate to that at all...that would be quite 'mean' in my book, which is why I don't do it. Even when I've had fallouts with friends, I don't start telling everyone that my ex-friend sucks...I usually just say it didn't work out, we were too different, I could see her side of the story too..etc.

Uh huh. I totally agree -- they are allowed to feel hurt, but I find it abhorrent for someone to go on a campaign to set one friend against another. That seems even more obviously immature than the accusation levied against sub.

So... is that something that ENFJs struggle with? Not making something a public campaign? Or is this just a personal flaw within this friend?

Originally Posted by cafe

Doesn't everybody have people that will say stupid crap like that about them? Even as an FJ I've have people believe the nonsense my mother says about me, including that I'm cold, vindictive, crazy (the list goes on). People just say that kind of thing when they are not getting their way or are hurt or upset, etc. It sucks, but there you go.

Yes, cafe, that's right! Feel the hate and anger and scorn! Reach out, reach and embrace the Dark Side! I know you want to! It is part of you, don't deny your true feelings! Bask in its dark pleasure!

[substitute]

Originally Posted by wolfmaiden14

Perhaps they're just blocked by their own view of the world. (Strange for an empathetic type. >.>) I know the general reason for us doing what we do is because if someone is sad, we are sad, if someone is happy, we are happy. Perhaps they believe because a T might not have that deeper empathetic connection to their actions results, then they are just being fake.

Surely that's not true goodness though - surely that's actually selfishness?! I mean, if I sit next to someone on a bench who is crying, and I try to make them feel better, it's not because I get anything out of it - I don't! It doesn't make me sad just because they are, and when they're happy it doesn't make me any happier than I already was.

If I do 'nice' things for people it's because I believe in Goodness as a concept, and because I try to live by a philosophy of just indiscrimminately being good to people, if only to try and chip away at the cynicism and lack of faith in humanity that so many people have. I want the world to be a good place, and as long as nobody does anything except for their select few, because they believe nobody else would for them and nobody really cares, the world will never be a good place. I think that by helping when you have no personal investment, you're just making the world a little bit better.

Now, surely that is goodness? I've always had a strong feeling that when my sisters says things like "I keep all my feelings inside for the sake of those I love", meaning she doesn't say things to people that they need to hear because it might upset them - it's not really because of what she thinks. It's more just because she doesn't like it when people get upset/angry or shout or whatever. She can't handle it, so she avoids that situation from happening.