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  1. #11
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    @Werebudgie: I think part of my unwillingness to consider the stronger visceral reaction to be part of the Se integration process is that overall I don't see a whole lot of improved Se integration going on for me. Just yesterday I was in the public library trying to use the automated check-out- the barcode on the audiobook I was checking out was faded, so it was clear I'd have to type the numbers in. So I searched the screen for some kind of option to type the numbers in- thinking "Come on Z, it's GOT to be here somewhere, the option to type the numbers in...you CAN find it...you are going to feel SO stupid when they point it out and it's right in front of you..." for maybe five full minutes before giving up and needing to ask the librarian for help. She pointed out the keypad sitting right in front of the screen. (It didn't occur to me to actually look somewhere not on the touchscreen.) I feel like I still do that kind of thing constantly.
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  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    @Werebudgie: I think part of my unwillingness to consider the stronger visceral reaction to be part of the Se integration process is that overall I don't see a whole lot of improved Se integration going on for me. Just yesterday I was in the public library trying to use the automated check-out- the barcode on the audiobook I was checking out was faded, so it was clear I'd have to type the numbers in. So I searched the screen for some kind of option to type the numbers in- thinking "Come on Z, it's GOT to be here somewhere, the option to type the numbers in...you CAN find it...you are going to feel SO stupid when they point it out and it's right in front of you..." for maybe five full minutes before giving up and needing to ask the librarian for help. She pointed out the keypad sitting right in front of the screen. (It didn't occur to me to actually look somewhere not on the touchscreen.) I feel like I still do that kind of thing constantly.
    This is why, for me, the understanding of Se-inf as in service to Ni-dom is important. I don't feel like my overall Se is better and I do stuff like what you describe all the time. I still have many of the Se-inf patterns that aren't useful. But what has changed for me is Se integrated with Ni. Meaning, Se information that gets threaded through a Ni field/world/perspective/some other word to give me information that can resonate with the overall Ni perceptual flow. So, a fair amount of the physical stuff that I experience doesn't do that - but some does. One really clear example for me is allowing myself to feel/sense land and people in a visceral way and trusting that perception. It totally resonates with how Ni works, but has the visceral-ness of immediate physical information. I don't think I'll ever experience Se like someone who's Se-dom or Se-aux does. It has to flow through or in reference to Ni in some way to make sense to me.

    Does that make sense?

    eta: One of the first experiences of Se-inf integration with Ni when it first started (so it was less sophisticated/developed than it is now for me): I was living in an area where bark beetles were overtaking the pine trees due to drought. I felt like I could "hear" (metaphorically but viscerally, in my body) the trees screaming in pain. It was a visceral experience of a physical reality, but threaded through how Ni-dom perception works for me.

  3. #13
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Werebudgie View Post
    This is why, for me, the understanding of Se-inf as in service to Ni-dom is important. I don't feel like my overall Se is better and I do stuff like what you describe all the time. I still have many of the Se-inf patterns that aren't useful. But what has changed for me is Se integrated with Ni. Meaning, Se information that gets threaded through a Ni field/world/perspective/some other word to give me information that can resonate with the overall Ni perceptual flow. So, a fair amount of the physical stuff that I experience doesn't do that - but some does. One really clear example for me is allowing myself to feel/sense land and people in a visceral way and trusting that perception. It totally resonates with how Ni works, but has the visceral-ness of immediate physical information. I don't think I'll ever experience Se like someone who's Se-dom or Se-aux does. It has to flow through or in reference to Ni in some way to make sense to me.

    Does that make sense?

    eta: One of the first experiences of Se-inf integration with Ni when it first started (so it was less sophisticated/developed than it is now for me): I was living in an area where bark beetles were overtaking the pine trees due to drought. I felt like I could "hear" (metaphorically but viscerally, in my body) the trees screaming in pain. It was a visceral experience of a physical reality, but threaded through how Ni-dom perception works for me.
    I think it does. It reminds me of the old joke "He takes sugar in the morning, and he puts some coffee in it." Or substitute whatever food- "Try the cheese, it's got mostaccioli in it"- the point is to jokingly say there's so much additive that it actually changes the additive to the main ingredient. And (I think) you're pointing out that inferior Se is still going to be inferior- that more awareness of it isn't going to change it to the main ingredient.

    It almost sounds like you're describing Si, like it's about having more real-time sensory awareness of the introverted perception. Or like having more Si of Ni. Or N flavored Si. I don't know. *shrug* I always have difficulty getting specific with 'functions' because I don't think the understanding of them is uniform/universal enough to really know I'm hearing anyone or that they're really hearing me (if there even can be an understanding that's uniform/universal enough, because of their abstract nature). There's something in me that resists delving too far in slapping definite function labels on much of anything.
    Reality is a collective hunch. -Lily Tomlin

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  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    I think it does. It reminds me of the old joke "He takes sugar in the morning, and he puts some coffee in it." Or substitute whatever food- "Try the cheese, it's got mostaccioli in it"- the point is to jokingly say there's so much additive that it actually changes the additive to the main ingredient. And (I think) you're pointing out that inferior Se is still going to be inferior- that more awareness of it isn't going to change it to the main ingredient.
    Yes - at least in my experience.

    It almost sounds like you're describing Si, like it's about having more real-time sensory awareness of the introverted perception. Or like having more Si of Ni. Or N flavored Si. I don't know.
    Nah, as far as I can tell, it really is Se, not Si. It doesn't meld like that, it retains its integrity as a function (though an inferior function). It gets streamed or threaded through Ni. In my experience, there are resonances between some aspects of the external sensory world and the resonance of what Ni is for me. So there's no need for Se-inf to change itself in any fundamental way to serve Ni.

    *shrug* I always have difficulty getting specific with 'functions' because I don't think the understanding of them is uniform/universal enough to really know I'm hearing anyone or that they're really hearing me (if there even can be an understanding that's uniform/universal enough, because of their abstract nature). There's something in me that resists delving too far in slapping definite function labels on much of anything.
    I agree that there's a lot of difficulty around hearing other people and being heard, as you describe. I personally like function stuff when it helps clarify understanding and in many cases for me, it does (for example, the Ni perspective shifting thing has been a huge deal for me right now since my partner is such a shit about it sometimes, and it's tempting for me to accept her judgement that it's somehow suspect, rather than a normal part of how I and others process information). And having the language for what I map to Se-inf integration with Ni is also useful for me. Moving it into "is that Si?" etc feels not as useful to me. (And on the whole other side of the spectrum, there's the pattern I sometimes see on this site where people use the function talk as a rhetorical weapon against others and/or as a way to feed their particular psychological issues in interaction with others, and that's not ok with me at all). So anyway, for me it's a range.

  5. #15
    Senior Member Winds of Thor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    As an introverted perception function, dominant Ni is not making any kind of value judgments. It's only taking in impressions--as many different possible interpretations of the significance of any given idea or event as possible. That may sound similar to Ne on the surface, but it's not--Ne is picking up a lot of different events and ideas at once and looking for common threads between them; Ni is picking one idea or event at a time and examining ("from a clean slate", as Yukawa says) every angle of every component of that one thing in order to find any as-of-yet untried interpretations that might cause us to view the whole issue in an entirely new light.

    While Ne explodes into a million new places from one starting point, Ni is much more comfortable "imploding" into an overarching interpretation that combines many different disparate elements into one more cohesive whole. Often this results in the keen ability to pare down many different apparently disparate options into the best and most effective option for the singular vision that the INFJ's judgment functions have decided is the best use of time. This ability often leads others to see INFJs as possessing some sort of mystical, almost supernatural foresight; of course, there is nothing supernatural about--Ni simply notes the general ideas implied by conceptual impressions, and from there it's not a difficult jump to imagine how they might be deconstructed or rearranged for different purposes. Ni dominants are often surprised and a little perplexed that others don't naturally see the unstated meaning that characterizes their entire self-experience.
    ..and this ability is also a disability; in the context it allows or guides the person off onto a derail into areas of beliefs. They're merely projections based on value judgements. This is the bias of the INFJ. And this bias is also sometimes non-intentional, because it is a tertiary way of arriving at views. This three-degree separation from external reality and different from 'intent' is why the type often claim they are unbiased while to others, bias often is fairly clearly there or apparent.

    Thanks.
    "..And the eight and final rule: If this is your first time at Fight Club, you have to fight."
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  6. #16
    Vulnerability Eilonwy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Winds of Thor View Post
    ..and this ability is also a disability; in the context it allows or guides the person off onto a derail into areas of beliefs. They're merely projections based on value judgements. This is the bias of the INFJ. And this bias is also sometimes non-intentional, because it is a tertiary way of arriving at views. This three-degree separation from external reality and different from 'intent' is why the type often claim they are unbiased while to others, bias often is fairly clearly there or apparent.

    Thanks.
    This is interesting. I just finished watching a couple of talks that mention cognitive distance and cheating--how it gets easier to cheat the further away we are from the consequences of our actions--and I ended up relating that to what you're saying in this post, and also relating it to "live and learn", where Pe-types actually have to experience consequences first-hand, while I, as a Je-type, tend to plan so that I don't have to face as many consequences first-hand because I imagine them instead, thus removing me at least a step from real consequences.

    You've given me a lot to think about. Thanks.
    Johari / Nohari

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    reminder to self: "That YOU that you are so proud of is a story woven together by your interpreter module to account for as much of your behavior as it can incorporate, and it denies or rationalizes the rest." "Who's in Charge? Free Will and the Science of the Brain" by Michael S. Gazzaniga

  7. #17
    Senior Member yeghor's Avatar
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    I think she's an INFJ... She talks about her experiences with other types...

    I agree with what she says about ENFPs...


  8. #18
    Senior Member yeghor's Avatar
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