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  1. #31
    Senior Member Gabe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    Athenian, as I understand your argument that Fe is more accurate than Fi because it is objective in the regard that it relates to the object or the external world directly, not like Fi that interposes subjective interpretation between itself and the world.


    However, objective in this sense is different from objective in the regard of standing devoid of your prejudices. To use the two interchangeably means to succumb to the fallacy of equivocation.


    There are two ways to gain knowledge, either through your own reflection, or by having someone else instruct you. The former is akin to Fi methodology, the latter to Fe.

    Which is more objective with respect to the second definition? Fe is at the whims of whatever pernicious external influence may come by, and has difficulty extricating itself from that as the external influence is the fuel Fe runs on. Fi certainly easily falls victim to internal influences, yet since it is always in process of thought, it has the proper tools to combat the influences should they be pernicious.

    Sriv, check my disclaimers and the personality/type distinction. Fe is but an unconscious tendency towards applying the human element to external entities. All other statements I have made concenring that notion are examples of how Fe may or may not manifest through personality. This is all but means to the end of evincing how Fe works in our unconscious tendencies. I was trying to make a point that as a matter of psychology, Fe derives its own identity from the outside. Most of the comments stated in reply to my profile were irrelevant as they deal with personality and not type. Such notions are best examined in the realm of social sciences such as psychology or sociology.

    Objective does not mean *instructed*. It means right there on the object. You don't need to be 'instructed', if you have any level of feeling differentiation, to know what's a sad face or a happy face, and what's a fortunate or unfortunate situation.

    Now I'll launch into how you're stuff that's supposedly about Fe types is really obviously more about shadow aspects of Fe that people (you? Yeah, probably) experience.
    When people are uncomfortable, or incompitent with extraverted feeling they might:
    - refuse to compliment someone for thier accomplishments.
    -become completely clueless of what other people think of them, or not clueless but completely unable to figure out why some people dislike them. (I'll go ahead and associate such bullshit as 'they hate us for our freedoms' as examples of a deeply shadowy Fe in the U.S)
    -become misanthropic, yet heavily unconsciously infuenced by what some people think of them.
    - rigidly engage in socially correct behavior 'to be safe', and come to be seen as snobs or fools as they are completely oblivious to people's changing tastes.
    -use 'they're a wierdo' as an excuse for lack of compassion.

    On a side note, whenever a process is being described very negatively, assume that you are accidently describing the shadow aspects.

  2. #32
    Senior Member Drezoryx's Avatar
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    First its pretty great that you've made this profile for Fe Doms and is a fair bit of material to chew over in idle time. At places a young/immature Fe dom has been portrayed and discussed and at others a maturer one without clarifying the same, also thinking is presumed to be a superior rational function, and the article seems to be based on somewhat negative neurotic image of a enfj in mind which is probably what is itching so many..

    for example where Fi is highly developed then harmony between external and internal feeling is sought for by the Fe dom.

    Its a funny example where you say that "smiling symbolizez happiness" only because Fe dom has been told it does so. This is an inane suggestion. Even a baby of 2 months smiles when he/she is happy.

    rather interesting to note you point that segregation of people based on their social status such that may be income. race, or group affiliations is doubtlessly the legacy if extroverted feeling.

    this argument is based on the fact that Fe is unable to disconnect from the external context of environment and not able to think for oneself. Isn't this itself black and white thinking? or this could be a portrait of a very young Fe dom. surely as the person grows other functions develops especially Fi for Fe doms which helps form idealistic standards for the self taken from the external environment.



    another point how far is this anlaysis also applicable to the ESFJ? for example there is a statement made " Fe doms tends to be adept at understanding the political aspects of external social phenomena and how to contribute to such a scenario." This would inevitably involve N but is this also the same for S types? How easy is discussing politics for ESFJ?

    another one

    " intellectual enterprises are bound to leave him baffled and intimidated." How so? and what kind of intellectual enterprises are we talking about? hardcore research? Its surely something not very attractive but its not baffling.


    Another one in the beginning of the analysis it was said that only external environment is reference point for Fe doms and later its being said "Fe doms further impose rules of etiquette on all people he can control" so this must assume that Fi has developed sufficiently to allow such a behaviour? is this healthy or unhealthy or just is.?

    Where Vladimir Lenins example is mentioned. Isnt it that the Fe dom is trying to portray himself as a intellectual in front of bertrand russeldd and instead giving the impression of bigotry and cruelty? Has bertrand russell clearly understood the motivations here?

    there is another point where "lack of reflection" is being strained on. There is a lot of introverted thinking, complex thinking, always on in ENFJs minds.

    Also where its mentioned that FE dom without access to introverted faculties will simply line himself up to the roles imposed upon him, is it considered that most ENFJs are born rebels

    there is a mention of Ti being developed around middle age. Could you elbaorate on how this pans out in the real life.?

    but overall im happy to note that introverted intuition and perception are being advised to be developed in this type to formulate a rigorous code of personal ethic.
    Type 8 sx/sp/so
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  3. #33
    I drink your milkshake. Thessaly's Avatar
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    may I request an INFP profile??

  4. #34
    Senior Member Scott N Denver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thessaly View Post
    may I request an INFP profile??
    there already is one by him. It seemed fine, but then he TOTALLY went anti-INFP anti-Fi. Click on INFP threads and look at the bottom of the page for "INFP profile" you'll come across it

  5. #35
    Senior Member Happyman's Avatar
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    I'd say there's quite a lot of bollocks in this description (still I've enjoyed reading this). As for objectivity of mr. Solitary Walker I'll allow myself to quote his ESFJ profile from INTP Central forum:

    I think that ESFJs should be exempt from responsibility for their actions. They are retarded. They are not capable of any original thought. They can only do what they are 'taught' to do. How can you judge them too harshly for what they do? They don't have minds of their own at all. From a Christian point of view, salvation should be given to them unconditionally. They don't have a self or a soul, they are just too group oriented to make individual decisions of any kind. The Bible says that salvation is an individual journey, which means that a person must say to himself ' I accept Jesus Christ as my lord and Savior'. Then from this it follows that he believes that there is a God who answers his prayers, so he will pray and tell God about the choice he just made. An ESFJ can't do that. She is extremely afraid of being alone, or thinking of any kind. She can only repeat what other church people said 'yes Jesus I accept you as my lord savior' without a shred of retention or a single bit of understanding what she just said.
    and the most objective part:

    Geee. I wonder what it means to be an ESFJ

    Well, to start with: ESFJs LOVE to worship authority. They are EXTREMELY CONSCIENTIOUS and believe that it is paramount to get the JOB DONE regardless of how frivolous it is. Especially so when it is assigned by authority figures that they need to suck up to. They always need to suck up to some authority figure, they dont have minds of their own, so they need to be told what they are like because otherwise they won't have a self-concept of any kind at all. They also LOVE TO WORSHIP TRADITIONS OH... GOD FORBID THE CHURCH TO THEM IS SACRED. Why is the church sacred? Is there a reason to believe in that? No, just because Bob Smith from across the street told them so and oh mmmmyyyyyyy because of that it must be true so from this it follows that well should dedicate our lives to it. Wait a second!! ALL THE OTHER RELIGIONS MUST BE FALSE TOO!!!!??/ AND EVEN WORSE... TO THAT WE SHOULD ADD THEY ARE WRONG!!!

    BUTTT NOOOO WE SHOULD NEVER EVEN THINK ABOUT STUDYING THEM OR PAYING ANY ATTENTION TO THEM AT ALL BECAUSE THAT IS JUST PLAIN BAD.... AND OUR AUTHORITY FIGURES WILL BE DISPLEASED WITH US

    OH GOD CURSE ANYONE WHO MAY HTINK THAT OUR BOSSES ARE NOT DESERVING OF ADULATION.

    AS PARENTS THEY HAVE TO MAINTAIN FULL CONTROL OVER THE ACTIONS OF THEIR CHILDREN. SINCE ESFJS HAVE NO VALUE OR UNDERSTANDING OF THINGS LIKE AUTONOMY OR FREEDOM OF THOUGHT AND BECAUSE THEY CANT THINK FOR THEMSELVES THEY JUST AUTOMATICALLY ASSUME THAT EVERYONE WANTS TO BE A DRONE AND A SERVILE LACKEY OF WHATEVER POWERS THAT BE.

    SO THEY BELIEVE THAT CHILDREN ARE ENTIRELY MINDLESS AND NEED STEP BY STEP INSTRUCTIONS ON HOW TO TO TIE THEIR SHOES. THEY ALSO BELIEVE THAT CORPORAL PUNISHMENT IS THE WAY TO GO TO... WHY??? BECAUSE THE CONVENTION SAYS SO!! AND THE CONVENTION IS SACRED!!! AND MUST BE WORSHIPPED!!!!

    DONT ARGUE WITH ME I ALWAYS KNOW BETTER .... I DONT CARE IF I NEVER HAVE NO RATIONAL ARGUMENT I JUST FEEL THAT WAY.... HOW DARE YOU EVEN SUSPECT ME OF BEING UNHOLY!!!?/ DOESNT EVERYBODY SAY AS I DO!!??? COME ON!!!! WHAT IS THIS ??? IS THIS NORMAL FOR YOU TO EVEN DARE QUESTION THE IMMUTABLE VOICE OF YOUR MOTHER!!!??/

    NORMAL NORMAL NORMAL NORMAL NORMAL

    AUTHORITY MUST BE WORSHIPPED... AUTHORITY MUST BE WORSHIPPED

    THE CHURCH IS SACRED THE CHURCH IS SACRED THE CHURCH IS SACRED

    IF YOU EVER DISAGREE WITH ME I'LL FUCKING CURL INTO A BOWL AND BEGIN WEEPING EFFUSIVELY LIKE A LITTLE BITCH


    NO OF COURSE NOT I WILL NEVER FUCKING SIT AND THINK FOR 5 SECONDS TO REALIZE THAT MY EMOTIONS ARE SUPERFICIAL AND EPHEMERAL AND I AM LIKE A FIVE YEAR OLD LITTLE GIRL JUST TRYING TO GET WHAT I WANT THROUGH FEIGNING BEING SAD


    OBVIOUSLY THESE ESFJS ARE INCAPABLE OF ANY REAL DEPTH OF THOUGHT OR FEELING THEY JUST EXPRESS ALL EMOTION POSSIBLE EVEN IF IT IS AS MINISCULE AS THE ONE OF A FIVE YEAR OLD GIRL FEELING BUMMED OUT ABOUT HAVING HER COOKIE TAKEN AWAY FROM HER



    OUH!! THE STUDIES SHOW THAT ESFJS VALUE RELIGION AND SPIRITUALITY A GREAT DEAL, THOUGH THEY HAVE VERY LITTLE REGARD FOR THINGS LIKE FREEDOM OF THOUGHT AND AUTONOMY AND JUST INDEPENDENCE IN GENERAL.

    WELL... SHITTT... MAYBE FROM THIS IT COULD FOLLOW THAT MAYBE SOME OF THESE PEOPLE ARE DEEPLY SPIRITUAL AND BELIEVE IN RELIGIOUS IDEALS...

    YEAH RIGHT.... ALL THEY WANT IS SECURITY

    THEY DONT CARE ABOUT GOD OR SPIRITUALITY...

    HOW CAN THEY???????????


    THEY CANT THINK PAST THE MOMENTS OF THEIR EPHEMERAL EMOTION

    THEY CAN ONLY BE PITIOUS SYCOPHANTS OF WHOEVER CAN FULFILL THEIR HUGE NEED TO BELONG AND FEEL SECURE THEY WILL PROSTITUTE THEIR SOUL FOR A ROOF TO LIVE UNDER

    FUCKING HYPOCRITES EVEN DARE RECITING THOSE BIBLICAL VERSES WHERE JESUS TELLS SATAN THAT MAN DOES NOT LIVE ON BREAD ALONG

    SUPPOSEDLY WHAT HE MEANT THERE WAS..
    MAN SHOULD WANT MORE THAN JUST SECURITY...

    MAN SHOULD STRIVE TO WORSHIP GOD AND LIVE FOR HIGHER IDEALS..


    BUT YOU RETARDED ESFJ SCOUNDRELS DO LIVE ON BREAD ALONG.....

    YOUR WORSHIP OR MATERIAL POSSESSIONS, CONVENTIONAL WISDOM AND SOCIAL HIERARCHY IS IMPOSSIBLE TO DENY

    SO SHUT THE FUCK UP ABOUT THE DEPTH OF YOUR FEELINGS.... YOU DONT HAVE ANY

    SHUT THE FUCK UP ABOUT YOUR LOVE FOR CHRIST.... YOU ARE TO SUPERFICIAL TO LOVE

    SHUT THE FUCK UP ABOUT HOW YOU MAY OR MAY NOT LOVE YOUR CHILDREN OR YOUR HUSBANDS BECAUSE THE REASON YOU'RE SMOTHERING THEM IS BECAUSE YOU NEED TO EXERCISE SOME FUCKING CONTROL OVER PEOPLE IN YOUR LIFE THAT CAN BE CONTROLLED SO YOU COULD FEEL THERE IS SOME WORTH TO YOU AS OPPOSED TO NONE AT ALL

    SO WHY DO YOU PRETEND TO LOVE YOUR HUSBANDS... FUCKING CUNTS


    BECAUSE THEY REPRESENT AUTHORITY FIGURES AND THE BIG BROTHERS WHO WILL ALWAYS WATCH OUT FOR YOU AT THE EXPENSE OF YOU GIVING UP YOUR FREEDOM OF THOUGHT

    THEY GIVE YOU PERFECT OPPORTUNITIES TO BRING SOMEONE INTO YOUR LIVES WHO CAN FUCKING MAKE ALL THE DECISIONS FOR YOU AND HIDE YOU FROM THE COLD REALITY OF YOU HAVING NO FUCKING WORTH.... DONT PRETEND YOU HAVE NO REAL FEELINGS FOR THEM.... HAD THEY GOTTEN INTO A SITUATION WHERE THEY CANT BE THERE TO SERVE YOUR VAIN AND SUPERFICIAL NEEDS YOU'D ABANDON THEM IN SECONDS OR JUST WHINE INCESSANTLY AND BECOME A TERRIBLE BURDEN FOR THEM TO BEAR ON TOP OF THE PROBLEMS THEY ARE CONFRONTED WITH AT THE TIME


    YES THERE FUCKING IS A RETARDED TYPE

    THATS YOUR ESFJ

    AT LEAST ESFPS CAN USE THEIR PERCEIVING FUCNTION TO LOOK A LITTLE BIT OUT OF CONVENTION.... (THOUGH NOT A LOT) AND AT LEAST THEY DONT GET OBSESSED WITH WORSHIPPING AUTHORITY AT LEAST THEY HAVE SOME KIND OF A NOTION OF WHAT IT IS LIKE TO FUCKING LIVE YOUR OWN LIFE AND OBVIOUSLY THESE ESFPS HAVE NO NEED TO CONTROL OTHERS LIKE THE ESFJS SCOUNDRELS DO


    SHITMUNCHING CUNTS.. THE FACT OF THEIR EXISTENCE IS A GODDAMN ABOMINATION.
    Ooohh... we were treated nicely...
    "Act as though it was impossible to fail."
    Dorothea Brande

    I started a real blog!

  6. #36
    Habitual Fi LineStepper JocktheMotie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Happyman View Post
    Blah blah blah

    Yes, posts that are created in Rants, Raves, and Hot Air are clearly objective, and of course imply that the expulsions in one post of frustration are indicative of the poster's general attitude and scope.



  7. #37
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    Just out of interest, what part of the description was wrong?

    Because, aside from the entertaining adjective use, standard type descriptions more or less agree with what was presented above.

    The ESFJ's value system is defined externally. They usually have very well-formed ideas about the way things should be, and are not shy about expressing these opinions. However, they weigh their values and morals against the world around them, rather than against an internal value system. They may have a strong moral code, but it is defined by the community that they live in, rather than by any strongly felt internal values.

    ESFJs who have had the benefit of being raised and surrounded by a strong value system that is ethical and centered around genuine goodness will most likely be the kindest, most generous souls who will gladly give you the shirt off of their back without a second thought. For these individuals, the selfless quality of their personality type is genuine and pure. ESFJs who have not had the advantage of developing their own values by weighing them against a good external value system may develop very questionable values. In such cases, the ESFJ most often genuinely believes in the integrity of their skewed value system. They have no internal understanding of values to set them straight. In weighing their values against our society, they find plenty of support for whatever moral transgression they wish to justify. This type of ESFJ is a dangerous person indeed. Extraverted Feeling drives them to control and manipulate, and their lack of Intuition prevents them from seeing the big picture. They're usually quite popular and good with people, and good at manipulating them. Unlike their ENFJ cousin, they don't have Intuition to help them understand the real consequences of their actions. They are driven to manipulate other to achieve their own ends, yet they believe that they are following a solid moral code of conduct.




    To avoid going to Hell, I point out this quoted text condemns societies and communities, and thus everyone in any position of responsibility, not ESFJs. Seemingly.
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

    Boy meets Grr

  8. #38
    Senior Member Happyman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JocktheMotie View Post
    Yes, posts that are created in Rants, Raves, and Hot Air are clearly objective, and of course imply that the expulsions in one post of frustration are indicative of the poster's general attitude and scope.
    I only suggest that it's impossible to remain objective having such a strong anti 'Fe' feelings.

    As the man himself (Solitary Walker) has said:
    Well, I can't say that what I have here is an objective exegesis of the ESFJ temperament, however, what I have said in this thread clearly applies to the ESFJ persons that I got to know.
    Edit:
    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    Just out of interest, what part of the description was wrong?
    Because, aside from the entertaining adjective use, standard type description more or less agree with what was presented above.
    Let's say that this is a caricature of an ESFJ, still I find lines like this:

    SHITMUNCHING CUNTS.. THE FACT OF THEIR EXISTENCE IS A GODDAMN ABOMINATION.
    ... pretty damn disturbing.
    "Act as though it was impossible to fail."
    Dorothea Brande

    I started a real blog!

  9. #39
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Happyman View Post
    Let's say that this is a caricature of an ESFJ, still I find lines like this:


    ... pretty damn disturbing.
    Indeed.

    That aside, it's interesting, the role of communities in the development and maintenance of people. I wonder therefore at values. Values in general. Like, appraisals of independence and dependence, their meaning and importance to different people.
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

    Boy meets Grr

  10. #40
    Senior Member Happyman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    it's interesting, the role of communities in the development and maintenance of people. I wonder therefore at values. Values in general. Like, appraisals of independence and dependence, their meaning and importance to different people.
    IT IS very interesting (sociology major, speaking to you ). I was thinking about PM you about it.

    I mean... I've quoted the whole post here, because I've found it somewhat scary that there MIGHT be people who do not think for themselves, who do not take time to examine what they believe in. Yet assuming this would make understanding some people much easier...

    I strongly believe that analysing our own values is what truly makes us human beings. I somehow refuse to accept that, some of us not only do not do it, but are also somehow incapable of doing it. How the hell can we have democracy with people like that?

    PS To add some spice to whole thing: I dated an ESFJ girl for a long time and... ooh... it would explain a lot if all of it was true (and make some other stuff harder to understand)... Yet I always wanted to give her privilege of a doubt.. Also I think it is too simple to look at these people like that.

    (I hope for further discussion )
    "Act as though it was impossible to fail."
    Dorothea Brande

    I started a real blog!

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