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  1. #11
    Senior Member sriv's Avatar
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    Wow, a professional on MBTI. I would think that this forum would have more, but one (surprisingly) is good enough.
    Reyson: ...If you were to change your ways, I'm sure we could rebuild the relationship the two of us once shared.

    Naesala: Oh no, that I could never do. You see, humans are essential to the fulfillment of my ambitions.

    Reyson: You've changed, Naesala. If this is the path you've chosen, I've nothing left to say.

  2. #12
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    BW, I don't even know where to start with this. This is my fourth time reading it in order to provide feedback. I know you're smart and that you've taken a lot of time thinking about this and putting it into words, but you're so completely off base that it's a sad. One thing you did get right; I can't even figure out where to start.

    The major criticism that I have is you act as if Fe is completely empty and vacuous and has no merit on it's own. It's implicit in your writing that you view extroversion and Fe as dysfunctional. I actually just reread the INFP profile for context and comparison and your tone and language is completely different than from the ENFJ one (less critical, more complimentary). I shudder to think what you would say on an ESFJ profile, if you even think it's worth writing. I wouldn't so much mind you explaining the negative aspects of Fe (which there are plenty of) if you were more evenhanded in the distribution of criticism to ALL types. But it's obvious which functions you've place on a pedestal and which ones you completely devalue.

    Just as examples:
    Unlike the Extroverted Feeler who may need ritual-like consistent reassurance of being appreciated, the INFP merely needs to know that they are appreciated.
    Introverted Feeling requires more authenticity than Extroverted, due to the factor of introversion which demands more depth...their feeling preferrence is stronger than that of other types.
    That is because the unconscious mind is the true essence of mind, the conscious is merely an external manifestation of the unconscious. Therefore the deeper the person is in his thought, the closer he is to the unconscious...INPs are least influenced by the external environment, thus they are most closely in tune with their inner being. The search for higher purpose is without a doubt at the primacy of the agenda of an INP.
    INFPs are able to derive more depth than the INFJs due to the profundity of their conscious assessment. (Introverted Feeling). Thus, whilst INFJs examine all of their Intuitions with a less than profound apparatus (Extroverted Feeling)
    Wrong, wrong, and more wrong. You're literally interpreting the distance is shorter between introversion and unconscious because it's in? Feeling is on a spectrum to more sincere and authentic (introverted) to contrived and manipulative (extroverted)? Introverts have no better access to their unconscious mind than extroverts. Introversion does not equal introspection, or self-reflection, or depth, or profundity, or any positive qualities that a healthy and functioning human being should have. I've suggested several books and essays to you about this topic...have you read them? Do they conflict with what you've already convinced yourself is right? How can you be taken seriously when you're obviously so biased?

    What bothers me (and this has been said before) is that you sound very intelligent. You're able to sound like you really know what you're talking about and people will believe you. I know you've put in the time and the work, but I think your research is incomplete and it's lead to dangerous conclusions.

  3. #13
    DoubleplusUngoodNonperson
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    This is impressive. I sincerly hope you copyright your stuff or send it off somewhere before posting it here. I'd never post a signifigcant work like this here if it was mine

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    I actually just reread the INFP profile for context and comparison and your tone and language is completely different than from the ENFJ one (less critical, more complimentary). I shudder to think what you would say on an ESFJ profile, if you even think it's worth writing. I wouldn't so much mind you explaining the negative aspects of Fe (which there are plenty of) if you were more evenhanded in the distribution of criticism to ALL types. But it's obvious which functions you've place on a pedestal and which ones you completely devalue. ...

    I will quote the parts from the INFP profile where BlueWing clearly points out the pitfalls of the INFP personality. He didn't really give INFP any special quarter from criticism.

    I truly appreciated reading these parts of the INFP profile back when it was posted. It is hardest of all to see the faults in self, to even know where they hide.

    Unlike the INTP who seeks to understand principles of the real world, the INFP will be more than happy removing their grasp from the external world. Possibly even be content with finding harmony in the world they have created. So long, as of course they have found harmony of some kind. Such a retreat will advance the INFP further towards the position John Milton was in, where they would be longing for the perfect world that has no place in the external reality. Much like Jung noted about the Introverted Thinking type, that the more he retreats into his inner world, the more he rejects ideas that are oriented around empirical evidence. Therefore his thoughts become mythological because they have little grounding in the external world and because of this they will be unintelligible to others.

    A poignant example of this would be an INFP who highly values sensitivity, as most tend to, misunderstanding the situation she/he is dealing with and attempting to be as sensitive as possible in accordance to the situation that they are dealing with. Yet, when they come out to deal with the external world, the other person may perceive them as insensitive, despite their earnest effort and sincerity. That is because the person that they tended to was not dealing with the situation that the INFP has envisaged. This is a consequence of an Introverted Judgment eclipsing the INFP's Extroverted Intuition. Intuition is a perceiving faculty. A function that we collect information with. If this faculty is lacking, we will not be able to solve problems that befall us properly because we will not be aware of what the problems are. We should also note that the Extroverted Intuition of the INFP is often aimed inwards due to the primacy of an Introverted Function-Introverted Feeling. Fi-Introverted Feeling, bends the Extroverted Intuition inwards and therefore creates the effect germane to Introverted Intuition. This leads the INFP, unlike most perceiving types to merely collect information that is fitting with the goals set by Introverted Feeling, instead of collecting all information as their extroverted cousin ENFP would be more likely to...

    The INFP may be frozen in only their own perspective. This ossification in their prejudices also precludes them from furthering their quest for a higher purpose, as in that case their Intuition, on which they rely for exploration of ideas becomes unavailable. And moreover, their longing for affirmation of their value systems will preclude them from entertaining new ideas for the purposes of emendation of their current value system. In such cases of neurosis, the INFP will not be able to surrender their current value system, even if it be pernicious because their intense sensitivity will compel them to equate rejection of their values with a denigration of their character. Moreover, they likely will be unreceptive to whatever information contraposes with their Feelings, and therefore exhibit unusual truculence towards all notions that they disagree with. As then, not only must the idea that they embrace derive from the inside, as is the case for the Introverted Thinker, but also it must be in tune with their personal sensibilities. This often leads to INFP becoming very dogmatic in their opinions.

    The problem that both of these types incur in regards to diminution of Extroverted Intuition, is that they will tend to make decisions before they have managed to collect sufficient information. And as before mentioned, will not be able to collect information with a truly open-mind as their thoughts are influenced almost solely by the Introverted Feeling to which Extroverted Intuition is a servile lackey. Development of Extroverted Intuition liquidates the dilemma of potential one-sidedness as the auxiliary function becomes emancipated from the serfdom of the superior. Intuition, by property of itself, processes ideas. Thus, in such an event, the INFP will not be afflicted with the malady of collecting only information that is desired by the Introverted Judgment. INPs, as aforementioned tend to explore subjects in great depth with intense focus, whilst the Intuition oriented thinkers (hence, the Dostoevsky example), explore more ideas, yet with less of an intense of a focus. Extroverted Intuition is the most extensive function of all. An INP who has mastered Extroverted Intuition will be able to concoct a worldview that is almost as broad as it is deep. Aristotle and Shakespeare the case in point. Ivory tower academics are examples of INTPs who have not accomplished this task, and Kierkegaard to whose work we can refer to as being stuck in a dimly lit room, is an example of an INFP who has not accomplished the task...

    Being a serf of Introverted Feeling, first and foremost, as well as Extroverted Intuition—the Introverted Sensing will pinpoint only the facts that the Introverted Feeling deems important, and those that Extroverted Intuition decides are worthy of speculation. Thus, the INFP with a low self-esteem often easily invokes memories that are unfavorable, and with the high, those that are favorable. As we see that the Introverted Sensing is often entirely at the disposal of the Introverted Feeling.

    INFPs are unable to do this because they are unable to separate their feelings from their objective perceptions. Due to this inability, and their unconscious use of the Thinking faculty, they often wish to see the world conform to the way they feel it should be. Intellectually, they hear a dim voice from the background of their psyche pointing out the logical essence of their situation, yet it is often overwhelmed by the despotic tone of their superior Introverted Feeling faculty. The master-slave relationship between the Introverted Feeling and Extroverted Thinking is analogous to that of Introverted Feeling and Extroverted Intuition. The Introverted Feeling only accepts logical explanations that are favorable to itself, and those that are not favorable are either disregarded completely or adjusted to whatever extent necessary to satisfy the agenda of Introverted Feeling. Or in other words, here the INFP will befool him/herself into believing that reality is either something they need not take interest in, or it is exactly the way they want for it to be. Thus, after the INFP has become dogmatic in their opinions, Extroverted Thinking, the most servile lackey of Introverted Feeling will be utilized to pass off what the INFP feels to be the truth as a logically sound argument, which they shall impose on others in a very common-place TJ fashion. Until the INFP has gained conscious control of their inferior function, the self-imposed delirium will not cease. When highly stressed their much neglected impersonal thoughts will haunt them in a form of their unconscious impulses that they neither wish to deal with nor understand. Moreover, it should be noted that INFPs, despite their intellectually adaptable mindset (NP) tend to be rigid in explorations of impersonal ideas because Extroverted Thinking is a J-oriented faculty. For this reason, they may experience difficulties in rapidly subject-changing NTP oriented discussions of ideas, and if their impersonal views are to be changed at all, they must be changed gradually, as characteristically of a typical Judging mindset. For this reason also, INFPs prefer structure when dealing with impersonal matters, as unlike the Introverted Thinkers, they are unable to improvise. Many of the problems above can be rectified through conscious use of Extroverted Thinking. At that point the INFP will be able to recognize impersonal ideas for what they truly are, uninfluenced by their feelings and act in accordance to what is most sound. Not in accordance to what they, or anyone else may feel is desirable. Until then, they will have to rely on the Fi-Te axis(going merely by their feelings that 'feel logical'), the unreliable reasoning that they have. Or the Ne-Te axis, which is to be preferred, as when the INFP extroverts, their Intuitions connect them to logic. Or finally, the storage of concrete information having derived from Introverted Sensing. With that procedure, the INFP will merely memorize how impersonal decisions are to be made. As an NP, the INFP finds this one the least desirable of the three.

    The most favorable way is likely the second, that of the Ne-Te axis, as this is the most intuitive approach and requires the least conscious attunement with their inferior function. However, the 'Si method' is likely more conducive to the overall growth of the INFP. Introverted Sensing links the INFP to their Inferior function because it is adjacent to it. Thus an INFP who has mastered Introverted Sensing will be more comfortable with their Extroverted Thinking as the two are intimately intertwined. The INFP shall not make a conscious effort to this, but merely will be successful at this as soon as their Introverted Sensing has developed naturally. At that point, they will also feel their Extroverted Thinking enter the sphere of conscious use. Naturally, the INFP will be most comfortable with 'the feels logical' Fi-Te method. However, the most sound approach to the matter would be the Intuitive. First, cultivating Extroverted Intuition, and afterwards the INFP will feel in closer affinity with Extroverted Thinking than with their primary Introverted Feeling.
    Last edited by proteanmix; 05-15-2008 at 10:14 AM. Reason: merged posts/fixed quotes

  5. #15
    Senior Member sciski's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    BW, I don't even know where to start with this. This is my fourth time reading it in order to provide feedback. I know you're smart and that you've taken a lot of time thinking about this and putting it into words, but you're so completely off base that it's a sad.
    Proteanmix, because I've seen you say that a lot of Fe examples described on these boards do not gel with your experience, and you disagree with BlueWing's interpretation, could you perhaps describe your own experience of Fe? What is it like for you? I have trouble defining it, so would appreciate a personal perspective, to know that what I define as Fe is actually Fe in action. This request goes out to any ExFJ, actually.

    (Incidentally, I have the same question about Ni, but that's for another day...)

  6. #16
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
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    i feel like bluewings idea of Fe makes perfect sense. without developing other functions, it would act exactly like that. the thing is, anyone with any sort of maturity will develop strategies to focus on internal standards as well.

    as an Fe user, i can definitely see its potential darkside. and i've experienced it to some extent.

  7. #17
    Senior Member Littlelostnf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sciski View Post
    Proteanmix, because I've seen you say that a lot of Fe examples described on these boards do not gel with your experience, and you disagree with BlueWing's interpretation, could you perhaps describe your own experience of Fe? What is it like for you? I have trouble defining it, so would appreciate a personal perspective, to know that what I define as Fe is actually Fe in action. This request goes out to any ExFJ, actually.

    (Incidentally, I have the same question about Ni, but that's for another day...)
    Like Proteanmix my experience with Fe does not gel with examples on this board either. I generally experience (from members on this board) people who do not have Fe as a primary function telling me how I experience it. What's interesting is that they are wrong. I suppose if I didn't have other ENFJ's Lookin4, Proteanmix and maybe a few others who understand what I mean I guess (like a total Fe who has NO thoughts of their own but only lives for others) I'd have to believe it. I would be just a follower put on earth to do what others think is best. (end of rant)

    As for the question...how do I (personally) experience Fe. I think that Dissonance said that Bluewings idea of Fe made perfect sense. In a really unbalanced person with primary Fe it would. I have really thought about my childhood and what kind of kid I was. Every experience I had that I can remember was never about trying to fit in or bowing to others wishes. I can remember being a child who loved people....(and when they are not totally stupid I still do even now) I enjoyed being around adults and other children but I was never in their faces...I mostly enjoyed watching them. I can remember always having my nose in a book and if anything wanting to be one of the characters in a book I was reading. Perhaps if anything I was more likely to pattern myself after fictional characters. My parents who have three other children would always hear from others. Well this one is just like you and that one is too, but where did you get her from. I remember loving hearing that. It made me feel special and I wasn't at all upset that people didn't think that I belonged to my family.

    I have always and still want to do for others. At times I've let that desire to help others and not stiffle them or their growth hurt me. The manipulation that most people on this forum talk about experiencing from ENFJ's is just not my style. Could I do it?....Absolutely...I totally work out entire scenarios, and I know that if I played "the scene" just so things would work out my way. But that's cheating, unfair and mean. When I've used manipulation is where I would assume anyone would. As a teacher I have often manipulated situations so that my student learn to except responsiblity for themselves. I've arranged for parents to see their child as I see them behave each and every day not as they assume their child behaves...if that's manipulation so be it. But as for using it in my relationships. No...am I tempted..yes especially if I truly want something...but I also want the other person or people involved to be who they are (good or bad) and do what they want. Even when I know...and believe me I KNOW I just can't do something that would tip the scales my way if doing it would be manipulating the other person. I am just honest with them about whatever it is and allow them to make their own choice. Making people do what I want is not even close to a power I want...what kind of world would that be...(better perhaps (hehehe *evil laugh) but not real and not healthy

    My main goal going thru life is not just others...I try to take care of myself as well. I am absolutely guilty of being the Fe driven person who sometimes loses that boundary between myself and others...taking on their feelings but never has it driven me to coerce them into doing something I think is the better way...more often I'm hurting knowing that soon their decision will hurt them...and in my experiences it has. As I've gotten older I've had to pull away from the caring as it does and has hurt me when people are in conflict or trouble that perhaps I could have headed off but in doing so would have been manipulating a situation...If they don't respond to good old fashion honesty from me..what will be will be.

    As for functioning around people that do not have my shared values. I've twice left employment when I couldn't share their values and vision...if I can't influence in a healthy way..I don't campaign to get my way... I'm known at my job as a sort of a "friendly loner" I don't fit in with most of the teachers and while I'm friendly with them all I do not go out of my way to promote harmony with things I don't believe in. My own inner values definately cause me to speak up...am I tactful...absolutely. Everyone at work wants me to speak up...(when they agree with me) and hope I shut up when I don't (which is more often) I am often picked to lead groups in speaking and advocating (even when I truly don't want to)

    I could keep going but I'm already late getting ready for work and I am soooo taking the day off tomorrow. Bluewing...I truly wish your ENFJ profile had taken into consideration that we are not slaves to our primary just like no other healthy type is slave to theirs. I know that just as I have to learn to use and embrace my inferior function of Ti (and am) you must learn to use and embrace your inferior fuction of Fe because if you don't it will continue to cause you to express it in it's most negative form...and to assume that anyone with it as a primary is unbalanced, manipulative, vapid and oh so very boring....(I'm truly sorry your experience with it has been this negative)

    edit: wow didn't want this post to be defending ENFJ's but that of course (in my rereading is what it is..hope it explained Fe a bit but it's early morning and only my Fe is awake :-p)
    for my life is slowed up by thought and the need to understand what I am living.

  8. #18
    Senior Member Blackwater's Avatar
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    i know several ENFJs where BW is spot on.
    best collection of philosopher typings online

    http://www.celebritytypes.com/philosophers/

  9. #19
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Proteanmix: He does have a biased tone because his very nature is opposed to Fe, but he really does try to be objective (though his introversion inevitably leads to a strong subjective overlay that can be difficult to overcome in seeing the outer world clearly). What would you say about these:

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    As has been mentioned in the INTP profile, the Introvert is in danger of shaping the external environment into what his inner vision deems it should be to the point where the introvert is unable to properly collect information about and interact with the external environment.
    We should however note that the Extroverted Judger does indeed have indirect access to ideas as he is able to experience genuine empathy after seeing a smile on one’s face and such a feeling within him is not at all different from that of the Introverted Judger who accesses the idea directly.
    I'm just saying... he can't even process his own emotions clearly, and doesn't always see how they impact his writing. Or how some of the Fe traits manifest negatively in himself as well as in the others he examines. So you have to take what he says with that consideration.

    I once said this as a joke, but I think it has meaning. All emotion is relative to a chosen frame of reference. That is, you can only understand the feelings of others by inferring what you would have to be feeling in order to act that way. So BlueWing can't understand your motivations in a positive way, because if he were to do the sort of things you do, those would be his motivations. He doesn't quite understand that you could do those things, but have different motivations than he perceives from his own position. You can only see the emotions of others by measuring where they "are" emotionally relative to your own frame of reference.

    I can give a good example of why Fe is superior to Fi by using this. Fi only puts you in touch with what you feel yourself, and thus causes you to use yourself as a frame of reference, no matter how distraught or calm you may happen to be (which will interfere with your ability to understand the feelings of others). Fe tries to "calibrate" itself to an average frame of reference inferred from the feelings of those around them, thus correcting for some of the deviations produced by their own mood and allowing them to maintain more equilibrium and consistency in their assessments of the moods of others. It also allows them to be more consistent in their responses to the moods of others, rather than behaving in a way that is totally based on their own moods, desires, and whims.

    I don't argue that Fi is deeper, more "authentic" (although the value of that is debatable) and more aware of itself, but Fe is honestly a lot more useful in interacting with others, and assessing their current feelings in a manner that is useful to the person assessing them, because it is accurate enough, and less likely to overwhelm them. It is also useful in giving people a standard code to use in communication, simplifying it greatly. If we all come to a consensus about what, say, a smile should mean, then we'll all interpret it correctly when it is expressed. BlueWing even admitted that having consistent standards in mathematics such as using decimal and standard arithmetic notation is desirable, so why would this be undesirable in terms of dealing with emotions? It's the same principle, establishing standards to ensure clarity in communication.

  10. #20
    Senior Member Littlelostnf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    Proteanmix: He does have a biased tone because his very nature is opposed to Fe, but he really does try to be objective (though his introversion inevitably leads to a strong subjective overlay that can be difficult to overcome in seeing the outer world clearly). What would you say about these:





    I'm just saying... he can't even process his own emotions clearly, and doesn't always see how they impact his writing. Or how some of the Fe traits manifest negatively in himself as well as in the others he examines. So you have to take what he says with that consideration.

    I once said this as a joke, but I think it has meaning. All emotion is relative to a chosen frame of reference. That is, you can only understand the feelings of others by inferring what you would have to be feeling in order to act that way. So BlueWing can't understand your motivations in a positive way, because if he were to do the sort of things you do, those would be his motivations. He doesn't quite understand that you could do those things, but have different motivations than he perceives from his own position. You can only see the emotions of others by measuring where they "are" emotionally relative to your own frame of reference.

    I can give a good example of why Fe is superior to Fi by using this. Fi only puts you in touch with what you feel yourself, and thus causes you to use yourself as a frame of reference, no matter how distraught or calm you may happen to be (which will interfere with your ability to understand the feelings of others). Fe tries to "calibrate" itself to an average frame of reference inferred from the feelings of those around them, thus correcting for some of the deviations produced by their own mood and allowing them to maintain more equilibrium and consistency in their assessments of the moods of others. It also allows them to be more consistent in their responses to the moods of others, rather than behaving in a way that is totally based on their own moods, desires, and whims.

    I don't argue that Fi is deeper, more "authentic" (although the value of that is debatable) and more aware of itself, but Fe is honestly a lot more useful in interacting with others, and assessing their current feelings in a manner that is useful to the person assessing them, because it is accurate enough, and less likely to overwhelm them. It is also useful in giving people a standard code to use in communication, simplifying it greatly. If we all come to a consensus about what, say, a smile should mean, then we'll all interpret it correctly when it is expressed. BlueWing even admitted that having consistent standards in mathematics such as using decimal and standard arithmetic notation is desirable, so why would this be undesirable in terms of dealing with emotions? It's the same principle, establishing standards to ensure clarity in communication.
    Thank you. Well said.
    for my life is slowed up by thought and the need to understand what I am living.

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