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  1. #21
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wandering View Post
    I don't have a problem. I'm just pointing out that you care about being intelligent and being seen as such just as much as Kiddo cares about being agreeable. So when you ask "what do you care?", you're just pointing back at yourself.
    i care about being agreeable, too. the "what do you care" wasn't literal, obviously. i more meant, why, for your sake, SHOULD you care? how does it further your life goals to pretend not to be as intelligent as you are?

    it would be most efficient (in terms of long term happiness maximization) to accept yourself for who you are and find people that accept that too. from this profit-seeking stance, screw anyone who's offended by your intelligence. drop 'em.

    Interesting. On what basis did you make this assumption?
    well, your tone was insulting, so i was assuming you had some reason to put me in my place. and instead of looking for a logical way to interpret what i said, you just jumped on me. you probably thought "wow, this kid is too full of himself" and it came out clearly in your choice of words.

  2. #22
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wandering View Post
    But that's the problem: Kiddo is someone who cares about being nice to people. Telling him to dismiss that part of himself is akin to telling him to act like someone he's not. That's why HE needs balance, while YOU don't: because he's got those two conflicting urges, while you don't.
    okay, first of all, you don't know me. you have no idea how much i struggle with being nice vs. speaking my mind. it's one of the main issues i am working on in my life. don't assume i don't have this issue, please.

    i'm only speaking this way because i understand the issue so well -- it hits super close to home. and i've spent pretty much my whole life holding myself back for the sake of others (or at least i think it's best for them). i'm giving kiddo advice that I NEED TO LEARN TO FOLLOW TOO.

    honestly, i'm frustrated with almost every person i meet because i feel like if i let myself just be me, i would hurt them. my biggest goal right now is to find more people who i can let go around. i only know two people right now that i can do that with. not my parents, not any relatives, not my ex... shit, one of them lives 85 miles from me and i only see her for two day spans every two weeks, and the other one lives 3000 miles from me and i see her maybe twice a year.

    putting a bunch of effort into friendships that will never get to that level is pointless. that effort would be better used in finding new friends or strengthening my friendships that might make it to that level someday. but the problem is, i care about those people so much, i don't want to just drop them. unfortunately (or fortunately, depending on your position), I AM THE MOST IMPORTANT PERSON IN MY LIFE. screw anyone who won't fulfill my needs. i can find other people. it will be hard, and i'll feel terrible, but the alternative is worse.

    allright? happy now wandering?

  3. #23
    Highly Hollow Wandering's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dissonance View Post
    i care about being agreeable, too. the "what do you care" wasn't literal, obviously. i more meant, why, for your sake, SHOULD you care? how does it further your life goals to pretend not to be as intelligent as you are?
    It all depends on one's life goals, doesn't it? There are many possible life goals that do not depend one bit on one's intelligence, or lack thereof.

    it would be most efficient (in terms of long term happiness maximization) to accept yourself for who you are and find people that accept that too.
    Agreed. However, that doesn't necessarily mean surrounding oneself ONLY with such people.

    from this profit-seeking stance, screw anyone who's offended by your intelligence. drop 'em.
    Quite frankly, I've personally never met anyone who was offended by anyone else's intelligence. By someone's smugness and/or fixation over their intelligence, yes, but not by the intelligence itself.

    well, your tone was insulting, so i was assuming you had some reason to put me in my place.
    It wasn't meant to be insulting, only provoking.

    and instead of looking for a logical way to interpret what i said, you just jumped on me. you probably thought "wow, this kid is too full of himself" and it came out clearly in your choice of words.
    Not "too full of himself", no. I've had many friends who thought and acted as you recommend, and I know for a fact that they were NOT full of themselves - most of them anyway. However, they WERE unaware that intelligence, and being able to constantly use and/or display it, is far from being the be-all and end-all of life. And this made most of them pretty unhappy, which is something I do not wish Kiddo (or even you for that matter, but you've apparently already made your choice) to go through.

  4. #24
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wandering View Post
    It all depends on one's life goals, doesn't it? There are many possible life goals that do not depend one bit on one's intelligence, or lack thereof.
    i was talking about PRETENDING TO BE SOMEONE YOU'RE NOT. i wasn't talking about not focusing on your intelligence.

    of course your statement is true. it seems too obvious to even state.

    However, they WERE unaware that intelligence, and being able to constantly use and/or display it, is far from being the be-all and end-all of life. And this made most of them pretty unhappy, which is something I do not wish Kiddo (or even you for that matter, but you've apparently already made your choice) to go through.
    why do you think i think this? i'm making an argument about efficient life choices for people that spend too much time worrying about others (codependents). i'm not talking about anything else here. your inference is unwarranted and untrue.

  5. #25
    Highly Hollow Wandering's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dissonance View Post
    okay, first of all, you don't know me. you have no idea how much i struggle with being nice vs. speaking my mind. it's one of the main issues i am working on in my life. don't assume i don't have this issue, please.
    I wouldn't assume you don't have this issue, especially since it wasn't the one under discussion The issue was "embracing one's intelligence to the point that we might alienate myself from others" vs "swallow our distaste for discussion we might find less than intelligent so that we can be accepting of others" (which was simplified as being nice). And you said that there should be no compromise, no balance, that the first solution was the only one acceptable. You made it sound like you weren't struggling with that question anymore, and I believed you.

    i'm only speaking this way because i understand the issue so well -- it hits super close to home. and i've spent pretty much my whole life holding myself back for the sake of others (or at least i think it's best for them). i'm giving kiddo advice that I NEED TO LEARN TO FOLLOW TOO.
    Except that Kiddo is in a totally different situation than you are. You say you've spent all your life in that situation: Kiddo explained that he entered that situation rather recently. So the situations are not comparable.

    honestly, i'm frustrated with almost every person i meet because i feel like if i let myself just be me, i would hurt them.
    How so ? I mean, how would you hurt them, exactly?

    my biggest goal right now is to find more people who i can let go around. i only know two people right now that i can do that with. not my parents, not any relatives, not my ex... shit, one of them lives 85 miles from me and i only see her for two day spans every two weeks, and the other one lives 3000 miles from me and i see her maybe twice a year.
    Do what Kiddo did Get onto that INTJ forum. Or join a geek club. Or get into the right studies (that's what I did, tons of ultra-smart people to deal with... )

    putting a bunch of effort into friendships that will never get to that level is pointless. that effort would be better used in finding new friends or strengthening my friendships that might make it to that level someday. but the problem is, i care about those people so much, i don't want to just drop them.
    Seems to me like you have the OPPOSITE problem to Kiddo's, then: you care too much about being nice. So of course, for YOU, the solution would be to nurture your intellectual side more. But Kiddo comes from the other side of the coin: he's discovered he can get mean when he nurtures his intellectual side too much, and he's wondering how to regain his nice side.

    unfortunately (or fortunately, depending on your position), I AM THE MOST IMPORTANT PERSON IN MY LIFE. screw anyone who won't fulfill my needs. i can find other people. it will be hard, and i'll feel terrible, but the alternative is worse.
    Yes, for YOU this does indeed seem to be the right thing to do.

    allright? happy now wandering?
    Huh ? How am I supposed to be happy that you're having such hard times??

  6. #26
    Highly Hollow Wandering's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dissonance View Post
    your inference is unwarranted and untrue.
    It's untrue, yes, I noticed that when reading your next post. I did honestly infer it from your own words, though. But I was missing information and got it wrong. Sorry about that.

  7. #27
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wandering View Post
    I wouldn't assume you don't have this issue, especially since it wasn't the one under discussion The issue was "embracing one's intelligence to the point that we might alienate myself from others" vs "swallow our distaste for discussion we might find less than intelligent so that we can be accepting of others" (which was simplified as being nice). And you said that there should be no compromise, no balance, that the first solution was the only one acceptable. You made it sound like you weren't struggling with that question anymore, and I believed you.
    why do you take every word so literally? in my post, i was using "nice" as a way of abbreviating "swallow[ing] my distaste for discussion I might find less than intelligent so that I can be accepting of others".

    and you really think i meant there was literally no compromise? i actually made a post earlier in this thread about how INFJs are good at disagreeing, but phrasing it nicely. there's definitely a way to politely debate. i'm not advocating being obnoxious.

    Except that Kiddo is in a totally different situation than you are. You say you've spent all your life in that situation: Kiddo explained that he entered that situation rather recently. So the situations are not comparable.
    not comparable. at all. heh.

    it's pretty much the same situation, except he's new to it. so i'm offering advice, having a lot of experience with it.

    Seems to me like you have the OPPOSITE problem to Kiddo's, then: you care too much about being nice. So of course, for YOU, the solution would be to nurture your intellectual side more. But Kiddo comes from the other side of the coin: he's discovered he can get mean when he nurtures his intellectual side too much, and he's wondering how to regain his nice side.
    sounds like the same exact problem. we both have to balance being overly dominant in debate with caring about people's feelings. we both have both traits, and those traits won't go away.

    Huh ? How am I supposed to be happy that you're having such hard times??
    sorry, got a little emotional there.

  8. #28
    Highly Hollow Wandering's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dissonance View Post
    why do you take every word so literally?
    Damned if you do, damned if you don't

    and you really think i meant there was literally no compromise?
    Well, you WERE pretty forceful in your wording...

    it's pretty much the same situation, except he's new to it.
    Which is precisely what makes it different

    sounds like the same exact problem. we both have to balance being overly dominant in debate with caring about people's feelings. we both have both traits, and those traits won't go away.
    Yes, but you approach this problem from OPPOSITE positions. That's why the solution for your problem is not going to be the solution for Kiddo's problem.

    Let's take a more down-to-earth example. Let's say you suffer from chronic hypoglycemia. You've spent years fighting hypoglycemia. Your problem, your goal, is to maintain the level of your blood sugar *up constantly*. Then you meet this person who's got diabetes, but they indulged in too much cake at lunch, and in order to compensate took too much insulin, and now they are definitely having an hypoglycemia episode. What are you going to tell them? Are you going to teach them how to maintain a high level of blood sugar constantly, or are you going to remind them to be careful not to send their blood sugar up too high in the first place? They have the same problem as you do *at that moment in time*, but given your and their history, you two actually have the *opposite* problem on the long term. You need to eat more carbs, they need to eat less of them.

    See what I mean?

    Your "problem" is: I'm too nice with people, I need to learn to defend my need for serious intellectual discussions.

    Kiddo's "problem" is: I've become too harsh with people, I want to get some of my niceness back.

    On the surface, those two problems may look similar. In depth though, they are the opposite of each other. You need to move further towards the "mean" end of the spectrum, while Kiddo wants to move back further towards the "nice" end of the spectrum. So obviously, you can't both apply the same method, can you?

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing

    The following picture is often paradigmatic of the way the INFJ perceives the external world—he lives in the state of antithesis of his own will to promote his inner being through his inner vision and the external world which by virtue of itself thwarts the inner vision.

    INJs are often uncomfortable with the world itself, as external environment, by definition is cruel and imposing.

    Especially the case for the INFJ as his attunement with the human element reinforces the pre-existing interest in human nature. Incidentally, the fear complex and the greatest problem of all, our demise appears to be of much interest to many INJs. As Ernest Becker has argued the thesis that death is indeed the greatest anxiety of man which is not over the horizon for any of us. This is less of a claim about Becker’s work, but more about his INJ prejudices. As becomes obvious to any sober thinker, most of us do not see far-ahead enough to envisage such a problem, or even less be preoccupied with it. Yet, INJs very much do for the aforementioned reasons.

    However, in regards to dealing with most of the world, this faculty remains inadequate as impersonal judgment will be necessary for that. In order to achieve this, the INFJ shall go to the next best thing, the tertiary Introverted Thinking faculty. This is where the vision becomes a notion that the INFJ becomes clearly aware of. Without the support of Introverted Thinking, the INFJ will have a very strong hunch and a feeling in favor of their perceptions, but will not be able to certify that their ideas are sound as they’d lack the objective means to prove that. Once Introverted Thinking has been properly applied, the vision of the INFJ will not be an unintelligible flow of perceptions, but is an entity shaped in coherent and intelligible units of ideas. Introverted Thinking by and large is first and foremost used to support the vision of the Introverted Intuition and the Feeling oriented goals of the INFJ.

    Since the INFJ is primarily concerned with their inner vision, yet rely on Extroverted Feeling to make conscious assessments of their ideas, they tend to be most concerned with emending the external code of behavior. Their approach to Extroverted Feeling is not at all like that of SFJs who strive to preserve status quo. INFJs tend to have a highly innovative approach to ethic and on this account are not afraid to question the current set of mores and societal ethics. By contrast they take for it to be their primary task to influence the ethical convention to become as humane as possible. The INFJ much differs from the ENFJ in the regard that the former is much more individualistic than the latter. The ENFJ sees himself as part of the external ethical convention, yet the INFJ sees the ethical convention as means to the end of concocting the best vision possible. On this account, the INFJ strives to meet the external standard of ethic to the end of furthering his vision and will not feel gratified after having met the standard alone. Behaving as dominant Fe types would, or seeing the external standard of ethic as an end in itself goes against the grain of the INFJ, in this regard the INFJ holds more in common with the INFP.

    Yet, despite the external focus, the external behavior for the INFJ, stems from the inner motives and hunches. Even though the External standard may be the only way for the INFJ to properly assess his actions, the decisions made by virtue of the external standard will not be acceptable to the INFJ unless they align with the voice of Introverted Intuition and hunches.

    Clearly, the INFJ sees the satisfaction of the external standard as only means to the end and not an end in itself as it is for the typical Judging types.

    Because of the extremely abstract nature of the Introverted Intuition, properly assessing such a vision as it is possible for the ENPs is out of the question for INJs. This leads to further internal conflict for the INFJ as their Judgment oriented mindset vehemently insists on meeting concrete external agenda which is ostensible to all—one that has a beginning and an end. This is manifestly impossible for the INFJ because the vision in itself takes on the other world, continuously flowing aura. It certainly does not appear to have a beginning nor an end and a sober thinker must deem the mere idea of pigeonholing such a grandiose vision into simplistic conventional moulds that the Extroverted Judgment insists on employing inadequate. Accomplishing this for the INFJ is even more difficult than for the INTJ as the INFJ is not exactly sure what the external standard must be like due to the lack of objectivity of their auxiliary faculty.

    Incidentally, Introverted Intuition reaches for the heavens that not a word of ours could describe, yet Extroverted Judgment of the INJ refuses to recognize any notion that cannot be properly depicted in conventional terms as substantial. Thus, the Feeling of the INFJ promptly declines the vision, and to make matters worse, the negative Ti sends them down the loop of self-denigration and dismissal of their lofty visions. This is the nature of the INFJs, negative, self-critical Introverted Thinking faculty. Because this function is aimed inwards, it is particularly focused on dissecting the visions propounded by the Introverted Intuition. When not properly handled the Introverted Thinking could appear to be nearly an anathema to the primary faculty of the INFJ, the Introverted Intuition.

    Even though Extroverted Feeling of the INFJ would have long asserted the vision should be dismissed because it is not relevant to a clear-cut external agenda, the vision continues to be the primary driving force of the INJ, and rarely hesitates to do different or the opposite from what the Extroverted Judgment prescribes. The INTJ may maintain a cool and unperturbed demeanor despite the inner chaos, yet all the INFJ has for consolations is their orderly and systematic approach to the external world offered by their Extroverted Judgment. However, this does not provide the INFJ with the consolation of objective and rational thought that the INTJ relies on heavily. This only exacerbates many problems the INFJ is forced to deal with as a result of their chaotic inner vision. Clearly, the INFJ is in need of a savior, there needs to be a higher purpose, yet even this is not accessible to this type because of the negative and self-critical nature of Introverted Thinking. The vision of the INFJ insists on depth and authenticity, yet the standard of Extroverted Judgment is inadequate for this as it is much too rigid and superficial. Introverted Judgment is necessary in order for the INFJ to find the inner peace and stability introverted Intuition longs for. Moreover, since Extroverted Feeling could also go corrupt very easily if the INFJ is to be unbalanced, in such a case this type will be almost wholly without judgment and rely on extremely abstract, amorphous hunches that are nearly impossible for one to make sense of.

    When the INFJ is out of tune with the auxiliary faculty, he may be stuck deeply within his head with no sound way of engaging the external world.

    However, in order to engage Extroverted Feeling the INFJ must engage the external world. This is anathema to such a type as interacting with the external environment tends to be difficult and painful due to lack of attunement with the inferior Extroverted Perception. Because the INFJ is unable to interact with the external environment, he is not able to properly access Extroverted Feeling and receive the much needed emotional support and ingredients for balance. The more cut off the INFJ becomes from the External world and Extroverted Feeling, the more he looses touch with conscious judgment and is swept away by the amorphous perceptions that overwhelm him. He lives in reality of his own, almost wholly bereft of that outside of him.
    I've enjoyed reading this. I've cut out some of the paragraphs that really caught my eye and resonated with me quite a bit.(this so reminds me of some of my blog posts, hahaha)

    I have some minor quibbles with Se, but it's more on a personal level, in that I think I have pretty good access to it and I don't think I really have the 'fear' of it that you have cited is typical of INFJ's. I embrace aspects of it that I think are meaningful, useful, or necessary for my health/balance, and reject other aspects.

    Perhaps the distinction is that when external conditions infringe upon me or impact me in a negative way (impacting my lifestyle/vision/views), I'll have a problem w/ it, and in that sense might be 'afraid' or I might need more time than for other types to adjust my inner world to fit the changing external one. And that might be more what you were referencing when discussing the Se function. I'd have to think about it some more.
    "...On and on and on and on he strode, far out over the sands, singing wildly to the sea, crying to greet the advent of the life that had cried to him." - James Joyce

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  10. #30
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    Firstly...whoa, to read...

    So, I became curious and wondered if BW had perhaps stolen all these posts or if he'd written them elsewhere. So, far, it's that he's written them elsewhere.

    Well, he wrote word for word at INTPc on Feb 24-- baring a few slight wordings which he's added here...but nearly ALL is almost the same.

    However, it was written as INTJ profile. He just reveresed the wording for INFJs here---

    I don't have time to better respond just yet, would that he'd posted this a few days ago when I had time aplenty. Anyone else may do so for me.

    That isn't to say I'm disagreeing with what's written nor that it's a crime to regurgitate your own writing (no harm doing that, at all)--. I just wonder that he didn't give a Disclaimer this time or some notice that he'd already written the nearly exact posts but just so happened to switch a few wordings here and there to suit the INFJ this time.

    If anyone else has mentioned this, forgive me for repeating it. I've mostly skimmed the responses.

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