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  1. #11
    Furry Critter with Claws Kiddo's Avatar
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    Interesting read. I was especially intrigued by the Ti part as that is relevant to what I have been experiencing lately. I confined myself to hell (INTJ Central) for several weeks in order to learn how to justify my ideas with reasoning or until I was banned. I learned a tremendous deal about equivocation, logical fallacies, distortion of information, arbitrary redefinition, and countless forms of rhetoric. The benefit to such is that I don't fall to such things and can now form coherent arguments based on sound reasoning. As evidence of this, I accidentally recreated Kant's Transcendental Idealism even though I had never been exposed to the concept. I'm also no longer reliant on others accepting my ideas.

    The downside to learning to evoke my Ti is that it doesn't couple well with my Fe. I now have no patience whatsoever for those who utilize less than intelligent techniques in debate such as emotional appeal or any of the above mentioned, and I find it personally offensive that they would compromise the integrity of the discussion by doing so. This has actually lead me to feel intellectually superior and dominating to others and it is a feeling which I find terrifying. I would prefer that people understood my idea rather than dominating and embarrassing them in discussion, but my own personal prejudices and preconceptions seem to come out and it makes the discussion anything but amiable. So in that sense I disagree with the development of the Ti. INFJs have to be emotionally mature to use it amiably, otherwise it becomes self destructive.
    Quote Originally Posted by Silently Honest View Post
    OMNi: Wisdom at the cost of Sanity.

  2. #12
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo View Post
    I now have no patience whatsoever for those who utilize less than intelligent techniques in debate such as emotional appeal or any of the above mentioned, and I find it personally offensive that they would compromise the integrity of the discussion by doing so. This has actually lead me to feel intellectually superior and dominating to others and it is a feeling which I find terrifying. I would prefer that people understood my idea rather than dominating and embarrassing them in discussion, but my own personal prejudices and preconceptions seem to come out and it makes the discussion anything but amiable. So in that sense I disagree with the development of the Ti. INFJs have to be emotionally mature to use it amiably, otherwise it becomes self destructive.
    story of my life. i honestly don't think it's BAD at all, though.

    why do you care if you're intellectually superior to others? why do you care if you dominate? i mean, sure, it's lonely. but what's the alternative? being less intelligent? that seems pointlessly self-compromising. shouldn't you be proud of your intellect? i know i am. i LOVE my Ti. and i've been consciously developing it my whole life. i was always so impressed as a child by my dad's logical presentations (he's INTP). it just seems like such an elegant way to systematize.

    the cool thing about us INFJs with developed Tis, though, is we can dominate debates/discussions, but still care enough to teach the other person. i've seen a few ENTPs and INTPs completely run people over in arguments with absolutely no regard for the losing party. we at least put effort into phrasing things in the least hostile way possible, so we can do some good for others -- they might actually listen instead of getting offended

    you basically just gotta find different people to surround yourself with. i've been really lonely recently, because almost all of my friends have learned not to argue with me (which is weird, because i always admit defeat when i lose; i'm not very tough or anything). but i guess i just have a certainty about my argument style that people find intimidating. my BEST friends, though, and the new people in my life i'm most excited by, are the people who stand up to me. i'm seriously, like, happy when i lose an argument.

    anyways, i really don't think you should be terrified by your Ti, i think you should embrace it's power. if the people around you can't handle it, find new people.

    (p.s. to everyone else, sorry for being so self-serving)

  3. #13
    Highly Hollow Wandering's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dissonance View Post
    why do you care if you're intellectually superior to others? why do you care if you dominate?
    Why do YOU care ? What's so great about it? Been there, done that, it's nothing to write home about.

    i mean, sure, it's lonely. but what's the alternative? being less intelligent?
    You can't be less intelligent. But you can stop making your life revolve around your intelligence. So you're intelligent. So what?

  4. #14
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wandering View Post
    You can't be less intelligent. But you can stop making your life revolve around your intelligence. So you're intelligent. So what?
    uh, i was responding to kiddo. what's your problem?

    This has actually lead me to feel intellectually superior and dominating to others and it is a feeling which I find terrifying. I would prefer that people understood my idea rather than dominating and embarrassing them in discussion
    i was responding to that. stop being randomly outraged.

  5. #15
    Furry Critter with Claws Kiddo's Avatar
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    It's an interesting contention there. Should I embrace my intelligence to the point that I might alienate myself from others? Or should I swallow my distaste for discussion I might find less than intelligent so that I can be accepting of others? How incredibly frustrating is that?

    I suppose the reasonable solution would be to find a balance, but that seems like it might require a degree of emotional maturity I have yet to obtain. Perhaps in time and with practice I will learn the tolerance and humility to do so.

    It seems that Fe and Ti force us to confront our emotional needs versus our intellectual needs. I'm curious what Bluewing will suggest.
    Quote Originally Posted by Silently Honest View Post
    OMNi: Wisdom at the cost of Sanity.

  6. #16
    ish red no longer *sad* nightning's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dissonance View Post
    i think BW would attribute this to tertiary Ti.

    he's trying to make the claim that INFJs NEED their tertiary function more than INTJs, for example.
    He's making the argument that T is more useful than F... (as with most of his analysis) Do you buy that?

  7. #17
    Highly Hollow Wandering's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dissonance View Post
    uh, i was responding to kiddo. what's your problem?
    I don't have a problem. I'm just pointing out that you care about being intelligent and being seen as such just as much as Kiddo cares about being agreeable. So when you ask "what do you care?", you're just pointing back at yourself.

    i was responding to that.
    I was perfectly aware of that, thankyouverymuch.

    stop being randomly outraged.
    Interesting. On what basis did you make this assumption?

  8. #18
    Highly Hollow Wandering's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo View Post
    It's an interesting contention there. Should I embrace my intelligence to the point that I might alienate myself from others? Or should I swallow my distaste for discussion I might find less than intelligent so that I can be accepting of others?
    Neither. Just create various circles around you to satisfy your various needs. For example, there is no need to "swallow your distaste for discussion you might find less than intelligent so that you can be accepting of others" if you restrict strict discussion to, say, NTs. In fact, they would probably appreciate such an attitude. So you can fully give into your desire to embrace your intelligence when in such company. But when in other types of company, remember to put your Feeling cap back on. Discrimination is the key.

  9. #19
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo View Post
    It's an interesting contention there. Should I embrace my intelligence to the point that I might alienate myself from others? Or should I swallow my distaste for discussion I might find less than intelligent so that I can be accepting of others? How incredibly frustrating is that?

    I suppose the reasonable solution would be to find a balance, but that seems like it might require a degree of emotional maturity I have yet to obtain. Perhaps in time and with practice I will learn the tolerance and humility to do so.
    i'd say there's no need to engage in pointless debate. i mean, i'm sure there are people who you are around by necessity, and you can dumb yourself down around them if it makes things more pleasant. but you gotta find friends that accept you for who you are. if they can't handle you, why bother with them? holding yourself back isn't gonna help you grow.

    my best friendships are those in which i'm intellectually challenged. i have to think on my feet, challenge myself, etc. i also have to concede points that don't make sense. this is how i grow.

    my other friends are nice/comfortable/blah blah blah. but they're not satisfying. i can talk circles around them. i can convince them of things i don't even believe. and they never call me on my shit when i'm overlooking something, because they assume i've already thought of everything. it's stupid.

    believe me, i spent years and years trying to dumb myself down. i would smoke like 30 dollars of weed a day by myself and hang out with sober people just so that i could be on their level, which i still wasn't. i would go to class stoned as hell and still impress my teacher. it didn't work. dumbing myself down was dumb.

    there is no balance. you are who you are. you just have to find an environment where you're comfortable being that person. when you say "balance", you mean acting like someone you're not...that's not something to strive for.

    Quote Originally Posted by nightning View Post
    He's making the argument that T is more useful than F... (as with most of his analysis) Do you buy that?
    T is more useful than F in terms of critical analysis.

    i mean, INFJs don't need Ti more than INTJs need Fi OVERALL. but i was trying to predict what BW would say, and i figured he'd go for the critical analysis angle.

  10. #20
    Highly Hollow Wandering's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dissonance View Post
    there is no balance. you are who you are. you just have to find an environment where you're comfortable being that person. when you say "balance", you mean acting like someone you're not...that's not something to strive for.
    But that's the problem: Kiddo is someone who cares about being nice to people. Telling him to dismiss that part of himself is akin to telling him to act like someone he's not. That's why HE needs balance, while YOU don't: because he's got those two conflicting urges, while you don't.

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