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  1. #11
    Senior Member Dansker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nocapszy View Post
    I'll triple the request for more spacing.
    Quadruple the request for more spacing.

    I find your insight into types interesting, Blue Wing. Thanks.

  2. #12
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aelan View Post

    Question, would you be looking for feedback on it or? . .
    Yes, feedback is always welcome.
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

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  3. #13
    Member Hypomanic's Avatar
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    However, after the ENTP has cultivated his auxiliary Introverted Thinking, he will likely concoct an inner standard to assess his own competence. ENTPs who make a conscious effort to cultivate their Introverted Thinking will notice themselves stepping away from the external world to embrace their own judgment. At such a point the ENTP will have most confidence in his own judgment.
    This part I loved. I was a bit depressed by the chaotic unbalance of an ENTP that was mentioned prior to this, but once I found this segment I felt validated in how I am now. This is the stage I'm at and I'm really happy to be here. I've been more conservative during my time in college, having partied and adventured prior to now (in high school). Today I have a very clear direction as to where I want to go in my life. Finally, I know why I want to stick to my present strategy (without waning) for the future. I'll mention more on this near the end of this commentary.

    Such individuals will likely use their keen awareness of the external environment to simply ‘pick the berries’ whilst having little concern for the interest of others and even less the amelioration of the community. This once more, is an inevitable consequence of introverted judgment turned corrupt. Manipulating the external situation will be central to his interests. Extroverted Perception will give him a clear view of the ‘entire board’, and Introverted Thinking will allow for the ENTP to make sound logical decisions to do all that is necessary to appease the whims of his egocentric will. Such ENTPs function in this fashion because they lack a higher purpose, or they do not wish to pursue any inner virtue that transcends what befits their external environment. Accordingly they will have little interest in being as logical as possible for instance. They will only want to be logical enough to get what they are looking for in terms of external rewards.
    This is definitely how a very unhealthy ENTP acts. I was so off-par with reality that I couldn't trust my judgment (or speech, or thought process) and sought out another's (with ultimate loyalty and obedience). Needless to say, he was an unhealthy INTJ and I got myself into a lot of trouble trying to assist in him in his schemes.. I'd believe anything he'd say and he used this. My ENTJ mom and the INTJ whom I followed said that at this point I relied entirely on my emotions for making decisions. I won't get into exactly what I was doing wrong, but I'll say that it took a lot of guidance from my ENTJ mom to intercept and start me on the right path again. I had to abandon the INTJ altogether, forever, and start healing. I now see him as he truly was, and I know now that before I was in an entirely imaginative, yet deceiving world altogether. Looking back I can see exactly what happened at face value.

    However, ENTPs who have developed their introverted judgment and have come in tune with the higher purpose will liberate themselves from the tyranny of the external agenda and only then will be able to come to terms with their inner being and view themselves as true individuals as opposed to mere agents of the network they are environed in. There they will be able to see a sharp distinction between the things they do to humor their outer environment and what is a true a manifestation of their inner being. There they will cease trying to be one of their personas that they’ve put on display for the sake of meeting a particular end of the outer world, but will then see personas as either irrelevant to who they are or merely means to the end of attunement with their inner being. An ENTP who has developed Introverted Thinking will truly be able to think for himself and his opinions will not be malleable by the prevailing attitudes of others and ideas that merely seem intuitive. Implausible ideas will be less likely to be accepted by such ENTPs as they will be subjected to the siege of their critical analysis.
    This is my favorite paragraph! Here's how it applies to me: Yes, I realize highly implausible ideas as a waste of time, as before I would think about them or accept them as reality (due to the fact that someone else's perception saw something that I thought I did not, whereas this was usually not the case in this misleading situation). I also think that due to my Ti being well defined, I've sought out much more alone time. My E is tuned way down and I can enjoy being I, while respecting my own ability to use J. Now I realize when people are draining me, and I have more time to accomplish schoolwork and leisure at my every whim. I'm much happier and (oddly enough) I'm meeting more self-sufficient, independent friends perhaps because of this. It's nice. They're the types I enjoy most, as its mutual growth without too many restrictions, little room for me to overstep boundaries or seem uncaring/unthoughtful (hey, the less you see them, the less you have to remember, hence you remember more! striking occurrence), little interaction outside class or occasional studying is needed, no deep feelings involved, et cetera (while I still get to have that positive feeling of 'friend attachment'/support). I finally do feel like me, and not just an ever-changing part of the system. It's cool.

    I thoroughly enjoyed what you wrote! Then again, INTP's always the most keenly aware of the types in seeing exactly how systems/people work clearly in their minds.. so I have a strong affinity for all respectable INTP perceptions (whether the INTP is being serious or not, it's logically convincing, I can't tell the difference). Thanks! That was a delight. I think other ENTP's should share their complete thoughts on parts of this as well.

  4. #14
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    I tried to post this on ENTP.org, did not get a confirmation email for my registration.

    Someone put a word in for me please.
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

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  5. #15
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    Thus, for this reason, the ENP is often easily able to see how the current environment could be as opposed to how it is. ENPs therefore have a natural penchant for entertaining the same notion from different perspectives. As before established by Jung, the Extroverted Intuitive type, due to the extroversion factor, depends on his immediate environment. This is where he stands in sharp contrast with the Introverted Intuiting type who may easily concoct a world of his own. An example of this type would be Nietzsche, whose vision was primarily focused on the individual and what he must do in order to accomplish his goals. An Introverted perceiver will first focus on what most piques his interest and then expand his vision further to the end of promoting the initially established agenda. Hence this is the subject oriented creation of vision. In this respect the INJ seems vertically, or in a linear fashion -- beginning at one point and envisaging how the protagonist could progress towards his path, Yet the ENP will need to have the notion of the current situation fixated, and then based on that will attempt to see what this particular entity could be like. Or what it would seem like from other perspectives. Such a type would see horizontally, or forego selecting a starting point, but leap at the scenario simultaneously. Thus, an Introverted visionary is most concerned with the path of the individual, yet the Extroverted visionary with the path of the entire scenario. A glaring example of this would be the visions of social critics like Voltaire and Bertrand Russell. Both had a clear perception of what the external world is like, not what it ought to be, and then considered how it may change. Their vision encompassed all things, and its focus was never clearly placed, hence they appeared to be everywhere and nowhere. This furthermore illustrates the lack of agenda in Extroverted Perception.
    Well, actually, I can see the possibilities in a given situation. For instance, if a person jumps out of a building from the second story, there can only be a limited number of reasons...

    1. They wanted to kill themselves because of suicidal depression.

    2. They were paranoid because the building was on fire/collapsing/poisoned, and thought they had a better chance of surviving a fall.

    3. Same as 2, but with someone inside with a weapon chasing them instead.

    4. They feel like they're in danger or in a hurry, and there's an object at the bottom that will break their fall.

    5. They were looking out the window, and perched on the ledge of it to get a look at something, but fell out of it.

    6. Someone pushed them out.

    Can Ni's normally also see the possibilities in situations, but just not as readily as Ne's?

    This leads them to a peculiar position of being very comfortable giving criticism, yet themselves being intensely sensitive to the criticism of others.
    They're not the only ones... I think most people are more comfortable criticizing than taking criticism. Especially if they can do so anonymously.
    Such individuals will likely use their keen awareness of the external environment to simply 'pick the berries' whilst having little concern for the interest of others and even less the amelioration of the community. This once more, is an inevitable consequence of introverted judgment turned corrupt. Manipulating the external situation will be central to his interests. Extroverted Perception will give him a clear view of the 'entire board', and Introverted Thinking will allow for the ENTP to make sound logical decisions to do all that is necessary to appease the whims of his egocentric will. Such ENTPs function in this fashion because they lack a higher purpose, or they do not wish to pursue any inner virtue that transcends what befits their external environment. Accordingly they will have little interest in being as logical as possible for instance. They will only want to be logical enough to get what they are looking for in terms of external rewards.
    What's wrong with this? Is there any particular logical reason a person should be more concerned with higher values and the greater good, rather than with getting what they want? I don't understand, caring about higher values and greater good sounds like a sentiment... not logic. I personally wouldn't do that because it wasn't fulfilling, but I don't think there's anything wrong with people who are only concerned about getting what they want.
    There they will cease trying to be one of their personas that they've put on display for the sake of meeting a particular end of the outer world, but will then see personas as either irrelevant to who they are or merely means to the end of attunement with their inner being. An ENTP who has developed Introverted Thinking will truly be able to think for himself and his opinions will not be malleable by the prevailing attitudes of others and ideas that merely seem intuitive. Implausible ideas will be less likely to be accepted by such ENTPs as they will be subjected to the siege of their critical analysis.
    If I didn't know better, I'd swear you had a very high opinion of Ti... almost like you want to worship/serve it or something.

    If balanced quality of the Feeling output of the ENTP may even appear to parallel that of feeling dominant or auxiliary types, yet if unbalanced the ENTP will likely plow forward with their crude value judgments expecting to receive benign results. Apparently, the ENTP appears to be much better at reading the thoughts of others rather than feeling and the Intuitive foolhardiness in regards to Feeling tends to lead to very crude blunders.
    Really? In what ways?

  6. #16
    no clinkz 'til brooklyn Nocapszy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by athenian200 View Post
    Well, actually, I can see the possibilities in a given situation. For instance, if a person jumps out of a building from the second story, there can only be a limited number of reasons...

    1. They wanted to kill themselves because of suicidal depression.

    2. They were paranoid because the building was on fire/collapsing/poisoned, and thought they had a better chance of surviving a fall.

    3. Same as 2, but with someone inside with a weapon chasing them instead.

    4. They feel like they're in danger or in a hurry, and there's an object at the bottom that will break their fall.

    5. They were looking out the window, and perched on the ledge of it to get a look at something, but fell out of it.

    6. Someone pushed them out.

    Can Ni's normally also see the possibilities in situations, but just not as readily as Ne's?
    If it takes the interest of Ni, then the Ni user will do exactly what Ne does. The IN_J will wonder "why would I jump out of a building?" where EN_P says "why would he do that?"

    I don't think that "many posibilities vs. single possibility" thing really holds any water. Ni just sees possibilities within the self, instead of possibilities of worldly things.
    we fukin won boys

  7. #17
    Senior Member substitute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nocapszy View Post
    If it takes the interest of Ni, then the Ni user will do exactly what Ne does. The IN_J will wonder "why would I jump out of a building?" where EN_P says "why would he do that?"
    I was just gonna say something similar, but you said it better than I would've so yeah, I agree.

    Quote Originally Posted by athenian200 View Post
    If I didn't know better, I'd swear you had a very high opinion of Ti... almost like you want to worship/serve it or something.
    We all know he worships at the Ti altar, but I think what he was trying to say was that a very active dominant function won't achieve balance without developing the auxiliary to act as a 'brake', and since it's ENTP he's talking about, obviously it's going to be Ti acting as a complement to Ne. I'm sure if he'd been talking about ENFP, he'd have said that development and use of Fi is just as crucial. Correct me if I'm wrong BW.


    I think you put a lot of work into it BW, and it has actually been quite helpful to me (esp. the part I quoted earlier) today. Thank you for taking the time
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  8. #18
    no clinkz 'til brooklyn Nocapszy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by athenian200 View Post
    If I didn't know better, I'd swear you had a very high opinion of Ti... almost like you want to worship/serve it or something.
    He does. And you should.
    we fukin won boys

  9. #19
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nocapszy View Post
    He does. And you should.
    Why? It's my tertiary function, so it wouldn't make sense for me to value it that much. I use it in certain complex situations, but I only see it as a tool, not something to be valued.

  10. #20
    no clinkz 'til brooklyn Nocapszy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    I was just gonna say something similar, but you said it better than I would've so yeah, I agree.
    It's a funky one though. I'm sure there's more to it than I've said. I just mean to point out the contrast between the attitudes.


    We all know he worships at the Ti altar, but I think what he was trying to say was that a very active dominant function won't achieve balance without developing the auxiliary to act as a 'brake', and since it's ENTP he's talking about, obviously it's going to be Ti acting as a complement to Ne. I'm sure if he'd been talking about ENFP, he'd have said that development and use of Fi is just as crucial. Correct me if I'm wrong BW.
    Yeah I think so too. I was talking earlier with him about my ENFP brother and he mentioned exactly what you predict he would.

    Clearly from the school of thought that too much of any function can be a bad thing.

    One other interesting thing we were talking about (and i hope you don't mind my exposing BW) was how the balance can actually help both functions. At first it would seem that use of a single function makes it stronger. That's the immediate reaction that anyone would probably have. But function isn't like practicing an instrument or skateboard. Having good Ne Ti balance actually fortifies the Ne, because there's a stronger foundation. It can make large leaps, without having to backtrack because of false connections. Also, the connections can be made more quickly and with greater distance between concepts. The proficiency of knowledge and deduced understanding of concepts can help the ENTP to connect, and logically validate those analogies. I don't mean to steal the spotlight BW. Look at it as a virtuous act actually -- I'm clarifying so you don't have to after that enormous exertion.
    we fukin won boys

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