"True" MBTI Antitheses

[Atomic Fiend]

I've almost became, more then friends, with two seperate ISTJs.

Almost.

 

[INA]

My dad's ISFP, I know the drill. Point is, ISFPs tend to be good at things I care about, and have personalities which don't make me want to commit suicide. Though we may disagree on things from time to time.

My mom's ISFP, and ditto . . . though there's more convergence than divergence, just not always beginning in the same place. Then again, I suppose she's imparted her values on me in some way (thank heavens) - and vice versa - so no wonder there's little clash based on that. That said, the other ISFPs I've encountered haven't driven me up the wall like, say, EFPs do. There's more of a respect for mental space and live and let live attitude in the face of disagreements.

 

[nightning]

*nods head* Yes, definitely.

As you've pointed out, ISFP is the "shadow reverse" of INTP. All 8 functions in reverse order instead of just our main 4.

 

[Colors]

I don't agree. ISFPs and INTPs are still both dominant introverted judgers- a lot of the same approach. I think the true opposite is ISFJ.

Sure if your decisions conflict, you're bound to not get along with most people (Fi or Ti or not).

 

[Nocapszy]

I was chatting over on another MBTI forum and someone mentioned that ISFP, not ESFJ, was the true antithesis to INTP.

I realized at least in terms of pure function use, this is correct.

ESFJ = Fe + Si + Ne + Ti
INTP = Ti + Ne + Si + Fe
ISFP = Fi + Se + Ni + Te

And it sort of fits with what I've said in the past (and in terms of total shadow function theory), where Fi (and NOT Fe) to me is the worst enemy of Ti because it operates in the exact same sphere as Ti is trying to, but with a completely different set of priorities.

So for the Ti person, the Fe neighbor might be annoying but they live in the house next door and like to apply their rules to the gardens outside, and so you can accommodate the way they do things, maybe even apply them to your own garden (even if your house inside is run by Ti), because they are applying different rules but in a different sphere than you are.

Maybe that makes sense within a single person, and might lend some stability to the traditional four function preference order, but I don't see it being exclusively true in person to person.
ISFP and INTP are both, ultimately introverts. Really they two are in different spheres. The ESFJ expects everyone to adhere to, and enforces their social customs in whatever way they think it ought to be done. This will surely impose on the INTP who shares a work/living space leading to frustration from interrupted thinking, in reciprocity for the INTP not having committed and followed in the first place. Both parties encroach on one another (at least in their idea of what that entails).
ISFP I imagine would certainly be a bit more perceptive to see that the INTP doesn't necessarily have bad intentions simply because he doesn't say please and thank you. Perhaps the ISFP might appreciate the INTP's calculations for different reasons than he does. But maybe not. ISFP might be Amish and think it's the work of the devil. And maybe the ESFJ was raised in a house by an INTP who went into deep shit like the INTP she lives with now, and maybe she has Electra complex which is why she's with an INTP so she can be with her dad vicariously.

It all sounds pretty Freudian to me.

It really all depends on the final outcome -- functions are just functions. Prisms -- not the light itself. Depending on the light you may end up with the same or similar spectra with dramatically differing prisms.
Or just as plausible; perhaps the combination of the two differing prisms is not something negatively aesthetic.

I say again, I am of the opinion that there is no antitheses in type. There is no set function order... none of that crap. Beebe can go fall in a well. He's a bad scientist.

Approaching people searching for these things, rather than observing indiscriminately, (and forgive me for agreeing with PT -- I'll do a few hail mary's or whatever those religious idiots do later) is confirmation bias.

 

[Jeffster]

ISFPs, meanwhile, were usually okay in terms of working style and we had fun together... but on the few occasions I've had to bump heads with them, it was almost impossible to get any sort of compromise. Basically, the Fi values (fueled by Se) are conflicting direction with my Ti values (fueled by Ne). Because we are both I, we'd simply avoid having conflicts and avoid the controversial topic, so as to have a happy comfortable fun time together. But now that I've had a few instances where the ISFP was mad at me for violating their values, we had a lot of distance -- they weren't interested in or able to promote a rational argument to change my mind, and I could not just accommodate their values that I thought were wrong, and so now we had an issue.

Does anyone else have thoughts on this?

So, I won, right?

 

[nightning]

Maybe that makes sense within a single person, and might lend some stability to the traditional four function preference order, but I don't see it being exclusively true in person to person.
ISFP and INTP are both, ultimately introverts. Really they two are in different spheres. The ESFJ expects everyone to adhere to, and enforces their social customs in whatever way they think it ought to be done. This will surely impose on the INTP who shares a work/living space leading to frustration from interrupted thinking, in reciprocity for the INTP not having committed and followed in the first place. Both parties encroach on one another (at least in their idea of what that entails).
ISFP I imagine would certainly be a bit more perceptive to see that the INTP doesn't necessarily have bad intentions simply because he doesn't say please and thank you. Perhaps the ISFP might appreciate the INTP's calculations for different reasons than he does. But maybe not. ISFP might be Amish and think it's the work of the devil. And maybe the ESFJ was raised in a house by an INTP who went into deep shit like the INTP she lives with now, and maybe she has Electra complex which is why she's with an INTP so she can be with her dad vicariously.

It all sounds pretty Freudian to me.

It really all depends on the final outcome -- functions are just functions. Prisms -- not the light itself. Depending on the light you may end up with the same or similar spectra with dramatically differing prisms.
Or just as plausible; perhaps the combination of the two differing prisms is not something negatively aesthetic.

I say again, I am of the opinion that there is no antitheses in type. There is no set function order... none of that crap. Beebe can go fall in a well. He's a bad scientist.

Approaching people searching for these things, rather than observing indiscriminately, (and forgive me for agreeing with PT -- I'll do a few hail mary's or whatever those religious idiots do later) is confirmation bias.

Isn't functions and types all just theory then? The basis has never been truly based on behavior... rather Jung's theory is based on function ordering. The personality type comparisons are just real life examples pointing to the ordering in action.

8 function ordering
INTP: Ti Ne Si Fe Te Ni Se Fi
ISFP: Fi Se Ni Te Fe Si Ne Ti

The two ordering is completely reversed. Assuming people develop their functions in that precise order, the most well used functions of INTP is the least in ISFP and visa versa.

Yes both INTP and ISFP are dominant introverted preceivers, however Ti is in opposition to Fi in every way. I don't think it's even possible to use both thinking judgment and feeling judgment at the same time? That is why INTP and ISFP are true opposites even though they share both I and P.

 

[Eric B]

So which type is the nemesis of the INTJ according to this method, Jennifer?

That would be ISFJ: Si-Fe-Ti-Ne-Se-Fi-Te-Ni vs. Ni-Te-Fi-Se-Ne-Ti-Fe-Si

While ESFJ is in one sense very opposite (I'm married to one), they still are considered in this theory "ego-compatible". They use the same primary perception and judgment functions, only in reverse. So they can relate to each others' processes, though with different priorities. So my wife is more serious with Si, while I'm more childlike with it. I'm more serious with Ne, while she's more childlike with it. She leads with Fe, while I lead with Ti. We may annoy each other with these functions, but at times we can use our inferior to relate to the other: me with shared values, her with logical principles (though sometimes, what happens is that I think where she feels, and then I get upset about something and project feeling, and she begins using thinking!)

However, something not ego-compatible rubs us even worse than those tandem opposites. Both of us seem to have rather active "opposing personality" and "destructive" functions. So when we begin throwing Fi and Te at each other, that's when things really get out of hand. (She ironically came out as ISFP when I had her do the CP test a few days ago, but it's obviously not correct. She misunderstood the functions, and graded way too high the Fi questions to the point it edged out her obviously dominant Fe. She also doesn't recognize her preference for Si over Se and Ni). Ni is another one I have experienced in some people, and is very negative. Foreseeing something, and then ends can justify the means, is the way I see it. Se also, is something I wouldn't want pushed on me (like someone doing reckless driving for fun or insisting I go on crazy park rides, which I'm terrified of).

The ISFP would have all of those in the primary range. Since in the Temperament+Interaction Styles model, the INTP and ISFP are very close (Behind the Scenes-- both Introverted and Informing; also sharing pragmatism), I thought that type would be pretty compatible. But now, it doesn't look like it.

The only known ISFP I have really ever had any interaction with is Sarah, on another board. It seems all of my T-ish theorizing went past her, and some of the F-ish things she used to be concerned about (such as how people perceive SPs, and other things like that), I didn't think anything of. But then the same happened with INFP Patrick, even though we shared the Ne-Si. With an ISFP, you would have that clash in judgment, plus a clash in perception. I do not know enough about ISFP's to see how Se and Ni manifest in their behavior, and how it would clash. I imagine with Se, you would only see it more in person. There were a couple of people I have known who might be ISFP. Very "Phlegmatic" socially (which is a low energy temperament), yet they are very physically active (hiking, regular mountain climbing, traveling, jogging, one of them even getting hurt bad doing it, and yet keep on). Again, my intellectualism and introspection seemed to go past them, and they thought it was potentially self-destructive. On the other hand, I got the sense that if I was closer to them (such as haviing a relationship with the one that was female), I would probably bore them, as I am so non-physical. Another person on the other group, who is also ISFP, said she went on a walk for hundreds of miles from one state to another (as part of some charity thing, IIRC. I Did walk from the Bronx to Brooklyn once).

Meanwhile, my wife and I do ultimately admire those things about each other that are different. So while they clash, they are not as imcompatible as the true "shadows" (ego-dystonic), which we do not admire.

As someone said; I guess because of the IP, they will not openly fight. So it looks like they wil just go right past each other instead.

 

[INTJMom]

So if:
INTP = Ti + Ne + Si + Fe
and the opposite is:
ISFP = Fi + Se + Ni + Te

then:
INTJ = Ni + Te + Fi + Se
xxxx = Si + Fe + Ti + Ne
I'm curious as to why the opposite of Ni isn't Se?

and the mystery type is.... ISFJ
Hmmm. I had an ISFJ who was my soul mate for 2 years.
We were kindred spirits. We worked great together.



The type I've had the most trouble with is ESTJ females.

ESTJ = Te + Si + Ne + Fi
INTJ = Ni + Te + Fi + Se

 

[Jeffster]

The only known ISFP I have really ever had any interaction with is Sarah, on another board.

Hey, whenever you want to interact, you just let me know.

 

[entropie]

ENTP = Ne + Ti + Fe + Si
ESFP = Se + Fi + Te + Ni

I think your theory bears a lot of truth. There are really only a few persons on the world, who can bring me out of my reserve and everyone of them, I would type esfp..

If you think about it, the entp being someone, who likes to be a performer. then he is most likely to take in things about performing somewhat different than the esfp - Performer.

That's a good theory Jen, I like it

 

[sarah]

That would be ISFJ: Si-Fe-Ti-Ne-Se-Fi-Te-Ni vs. Ni-Te-Fi-Se-Ne-Ti-Fe-Si

The only known ISFP I have really ever had any interaction with is Sarah, on another board. It seems all of my T-ish theorizing went past her, and some of the F-ish things she used to be concerned about (such as how people perceive librarians), I didn't think anything of. But then the same happened with INFP Patrick, even though we shared the Ne-Si. With an ISFP, you would have that clash in judgment, plus a clash in perception. I do not know enough about ISFP's to see how Se and Ni manifest in their behavior, and how it would clash. I imagine with Se, you would only see it more in person.

I'm on this board too, Eric! :hi: Yeah, I can't say I'm very phlegmatic about anything. I think it's possible to have a good close relationship with an INTP, but because of the clash of cognitive processes, it would take conscious effort from both people make it a good relationship. You've got two people whose favorite functiosn are in the others' shadow:

INTP: Ti, Ne, Si, Fe (shadow: Te, Ni, Se, Fi)
ISFP: Fi, Se, Ni, Te (shadow: Fe, Si, Ne, Ti)

No complimentary functions there, and the two favorite functions of each are least favorite in the other person's shadow. So there would have to be a lot of conscious desire to learn from the other and respect the other, without anyone needing to be "right" about anything.

Sarah
ISFP

 

[Eric B]

Hey, whenever you want to interact, you just let me know.

You seem like an active, adventuristic type.
Not too boring for you?

 

[Eric B]

I'm on this board too, Eric! :hi:

Yeah, that I knew! (which is why I could use your name, and people would know who was talking about).

Yeah, I can't say I'm very phlegmatic about anything.

Well, as a BtS (Introverted, Informing), that is closest to the traditional Phlegmatic temperament. Peaceful, amiable, etc. So the people I was describing also seem like BtS types.

I think it's possible to have a good close relationship with an INTP, but because of the clash of cognitive processes, it would take conscious effort from both people make it a good relationship. You've got two people whose favorite functiosn are in the others' shadow:

INTP: Ti, Ne, Si, Fe (shadow: Te, Ni, Se, Fi)
ISFP: Fi, Se, Ni, Te (shadow: Fe, Si, Ne, Ti)

No complimentary functions there, and the two favorite functions of each are least favorite in the other person's shadow. So there would have to be a lot of conscious desire to learn from the other and respect the other, without anyone needing to be "right" about anything.

Sarah
ISFP

Yeah; I imagine they could easily drift apart if they didn't work at it.
Is that easy for them to do? I guess with the P there would be more willingness to compromise, right?

So if:
INTP = Ti + Ne + Si + Fe
and the opposite is:
ISFP = Fi + Se + Ni + Te

then:
INTJ = Ni + Te + Fi + Se
xxxx = Si + Fe + Ti + Ne
I'm curious as to why the opposite of Ni isn't Se?

Because they're in the same ego-syntonic tandem, and the true "opposite", is actually the opposite function with the same attitude, (which will be in the deepest shadow for a preferred process). Because as was said, they are both trying to operate in the same area, but with opposite standards.

 

[Jeffster]

You seem like an active, adventuristic type.
Not too boring for you?

What's not too boring for me?

 

[disregard]

Eric B

 

[redacted]

Didn't read any responses.

Seems like there are different ways of thinking about opposite. I definitely relate much less to ISTJs than to ESTPs. But I have a bunch in common with them temperament-wise (both IJs). If you're measuring approach to the world, the normal opposites might work better.

But yeah, if you're measuring opposite in terms of relatability, I'd definitely use your model (or maybe flip the I/E).

 

[mlittrell]

i kinda skipped over over everything so if this makes no sense then my apologies lol

from what im reading you are talking about what i call "functional opposites" meaning their functions are completely opposite. to an ISFP the most functionally opposite would be an ENTP

ENTP (Ne, Ti, Fe, Si)
ISFP (Fi, Se, Ni, Te)

now, that being said, i actually tend to get along wonderfully with my functional opposite the ISTP. my reasoning for this is as follows: being that we have exactly opposite functions, we compliment each other in ways that the other types cant. for example, they compliment my Te by using their Se and Ti together, thus creating a synthetic Te. same with my Ne and Fi helping out their Fe. I find that when im around ISTPs they tend to be quite a bit more aware of people around them and their well being and i tend to be more logical in a Te type of way.

take all of that really really lightly/not seriously lol

 

[Jack Flak]

Nocaps has won the thread. Go home.

 

[nightning]

mlittrell: opposite of ENTP is actually ESFP... and ENFP is ESTP.

ENTP => Ne Ti Fe Si Ni Te Fi Se
ESFP => Se Fi Te Ni Si Fe Ti Ne

ENFP => Ne Fi Te Si Ni Fe Ti Se
ESTP => Se Ti Fe Ni Si Te Fi Ne