"True" MBTI Antitheses

[Totenkindly]

I was chatting over on another MBTI forum and someone mentioned that ISFP, not ESFJ, was the true antithesis to INTP.

I realized at least in terms of pure function use, this is correct.

ESFJ = Fe + Si + Ne + Ti
INTP = Ti + Ne + Si + Fe
ISFP = Fi + Se + Ni + Te

And it sort of fits with what I've said in the past (and in terms of total shadow function theory), where Fi (and NOT Fe) to me is the worst enemy of Ti because it operates in the exact same sphere as Ti is trying to, but with a completely different set of priorities.

So for the Ti person, the Fe neighbor might be annoying but they live in the house next door and like to apply their rules to the gardens outside, and so you can accommodate the way they do things, maybe even apply them to your own garden (even if your house inside is run by Ti), because they are applying different rules but in a different sphere than you are.

However, the Fi person who lives in the same bedroom and house as you is using a completely different set of standards and yet still operating in exactly the same areas as you're trying to. You *will* have disagreement now... and even direct interference if neither of you can back down.

Which made me ponder: ESFJs used to annoy me in terms of working style, but now I find them a lot of fun and I connect very easily with them. When young, they come off as stubborn and inflexible, but as adults they actually seem to sense the prevailing social attitudes and change with it based on the current needs.

ISFPs, meanwhile, were usually okay in terms of working style and we had fun together... but on the few occasions I've had to bump heads with them, it was almost impossible to get any sort of compromise. Basically, the Fi values (fueled by Se) are conflicting direction with my Ti values (fueled by Ne). Because we are both I, we'd simply avoid having conflicts and avoid the controversial topic, so as to have a happy comfortable fun time together. But now that I've had a few instances where the ISFP was mad at me for violating their values, we had a lot of distance -- they weren't interested in or able to promote a rational argument to change my mind, and I could not just accommodate their values that I thought were wrong, and so now we had an issue.

Does anyone else have thoughts on this?

 

[Synarch]

Makes sense to me.

 

[disregard]

Both are dominant introverted judgers. Can't be that antithetical.

 

[Totenkindly]

Both are dominant introverted judgers. Can't be that antithetical.

Exactly. Or maybe antithetical is the wrong word, then.

They are at maximum potential for conflict -- of trying to come at the same situation via opposing means and fueled by opposing input.

At least with INFPs, the INTP and INFP are both fueling their judgments with Ne. That helps.

 

[Negative_]

So basically what you're saying is that the opposite type (as far as how they think, approach a problem, etc...functionally opposite) would be changing the middle two letters, which makes the functions go in opposite order and direction, opposed to just the opposite order (all letters change) or direction (E/I and J/P change), right?

aka
intp -> entj = opposite direction (Ti goes to Te, etc)
intp -> esfj = opposite order (Ti Ne Si Fe -> Fe Si Ne Ti)
intp -> isfp = both of the above (Ti goes to Fi, Xe goes to Ye, and so on)

like how Ti is bound to Fe, Se is bound to Ni, etc...so a dominant Fe user and a dominant Ti user are on a more familiar level than a Fi-dom and a Ti-dom.


As far as behavior goes, ESFJ does seem like the total opposite of INTP, but I understand what you're saying and it makes sense.

 

[Jack Flak]

Good luck convincing me. I've had scrapes with ISFPs, but at least there's a little mutual respect involved. It's not the pure hatred I've had for ESFJs.

 

[Totenkindly]

So basically what you're saying is that the opposite type (as far as how they think, approach a problem, etc...functionally opposite) would be changing the middle two letters, which makes the functions go in opposite order and direction, opposed to just the opposite order (all letters change) or direction (E/I and J/P change), right?

I did not really explore it that far, I was actually being lazy and just tossing the idea out to see what others might do with it.

But I suppose that would be how it would work, technically, yes.

Good luck convincing me.

Good thing I do not have the time nor inclination to tackle that challenge.

I've had scrapes with ISFPs, but at least there's a little mutual respect involved. It's not the pure hatred I've had for ESFJs.

I identify with that into my mid-20's.
The last 10-15 years, though, my experiences have changed.

As I said, I think the shared Pe bent makes both types able to flex and unwilling to really get into fights with each other, so they flex around dissenting points leaving a pretty stable easy-going relationship. It's only been in the few instances where the ISFP has a hardcore value (and I would be talking about things like the abortion rights issue, or a marriage breaking up when they have particular religious values on that, or whatever else) that I realize it's almost pointless to discuss the issue, and because they personalize it rather than just seeing it as a conflict, it can derail the relationship as they judge the other person to be "bad" or "immoral" or something similar.

 

[Totenkindly]

Lol, check out this other topic, it captures just what I have said here!

 

[Mycroft]

Jennifer, typelogic.com seems to be in agreement. The INTP's relationship to the ISFP is referred to as the "enigma".

 

[Jack Flak]

As I said, I think the shared Pe bent makes both types able to flex and unwilling to really get into fights with each other, so they flex around dissenting points leaving a pretty stable easy-going relationship. It's only been in the few instances where the ISFP has a hardcore value (and I would be talking about things like the abortion rights issue, or a marriage breaking up when they have particular religious values on that, or whatever else) that I realize it's almost pointless to discuss the issue, and because they personalize it rather than just seeing it as a conflict, it can derail the relationship as they judge the other person to be "bad" or "immoral" or something similar.

My dad's ISFP, I know the drill. Point is, ISFPs tend to be good at things I care about, and have personalities which don't make me want to commit suicide. Though we may disagree on things from time to time.

 

[Domino]

Jenn, I do believe that my "true opposite" is supposed to be ISTJ?

 

[Totenkindly]

My dad's ISFP, I know the drill. Point is, ISFPs tend to be good at things I care about, and have personalities which don't make me want to commit suicide. Though we may disagree on things from time to time.

Interesting: So what makes you want to commit suicide in a conflict, versus just being angry/annoyed?

Jenn, I do believe that my "true opposite" is supposed to be ISTJ?

Feel free and elaborate, whether you agree or disagree, and why you think this.

 

[Jack Flak]

Interesting: So what makes you want to commit suicide in a conflict, versus just being angry/annoyed?

The feeling that humanity didn't turn out the way it was supposed to?

 

[Totenkindly]

The feeling that humanity didn't turn out the way it was supposed to?

Could you actually expound on your ideas so we can understand, instead of dropping one-liners that don't really clarify your thoughts?

(Honestly, you can participate however you want, but I can't analyze something I'm not getting, that's all.)

 

[Kora]

I thought of that watching the function charts the other day. ISFP is the true opposite of INTP, yes. Also, there's a correlation with the ENTJ shadow type. The opposite (on MBTI letters) of ENTJ is ISFP.
Yeah, it makes sense, though, I only know only one ISFP, and I get along with her quite well. Meanwhile, all the ESFJs I know... The relationship it's almost impossible.

 

[Jack Flak]

Could you actually expound on your ideas so we can understand, instead of dropping one-liners that don't really clarify your thoughts?

(Honestly, you can participate however you want, but I can't analyze something I'm not getting, that's all.)

No.

 

[Domino]

Feel free and elaborate, whether you agree or disagree, and why you think this.

Order of functions: (correct me, Jenn, if I'm wrong...)

Me: Fe>Ni>Se>Ti>Fi>Ne>Si>Te

ISTJ: Si>Te>Fi>Ne>Se>Ti>Fe>Ni


Ok. While I very very much enjoy my ISTJ friends, sometimes I believe that my use of primary Fe comes across as looking very scattered and outrageous because my (at least the females do... ) ISTJ friends attempt to herd me away from perceived danger. It's kind of funny. Like I trigger their inner "Hey, that girl just ain't right...." instinct. My ENFP sister has this marvelous ability to communicate with ISTJs on a very natural level. They always seem to think she has common sense and is funny and ladylike, while I automatically go into the "retarded child" pile where I can be looked after. LOL! I'm in the ISTJ creche! (And I probably belong there too!) Jaye has taught me how to communicate with some of them, esp when they're angry or burnt out, so I don't try their patience.

I got along great with Jaye's ISTJ love interest years ago (actually, the two of us being left to our own devices led to near anarchy at times... ahahah!) and I have at least two very close ISTJ female friends who laugh at what I do but always shake their head at me like "Poor poor retarded person". They seem to have a 6th sense that I'm nearly incapable of practical applications. I can't argue with that.

I think the potential for misunderstanding lurks in the bolded area. Their senses are telling them that I'm going to need looking after and their Te is demanding that I make sense. Some sense. Any sense at all!! It's difficult to "sense" someone's Ni, which is notoriously phantom and maddeningly immaterial in the first place.

 

[INTJMom]

So which type is the nemesis of the INTJ according to this method, Jennifer?

 

[Totenkindly]

No.

Thanks for playing.

NEXT!

Order of functions: (correct me, Jenn, if I'm wrong...)

Me: Fe>Ni>Se>Ti>Fi>Ne>Si>Te
ISTJ: Si>Te>Fi>Ne>Se>Ti>Fe>Ni

Before I comment on any of this, what would you say about your relationships with the following type, compared to your relationship with ISTJ?

ESTJ: Te>Si>Ne>Fi>Ti>Se>Ni>Fe

 

[Domino]

Before I comment on any of this, what would you say about your relationships with the following type, compared to your relationship with ISTJ?

ESTJ: Te>Si>Ne>Fi>Ti>Se>Ni>Fe

I have very little communication trouble with ESTJs. Example A: my own mother. I think we understand each other very well. I like to make her laugh and sometimes we watch game shows together because Mom loves them. We both like shouting out answers during Jeopardy and sometimes I say something highly facetious so she'll laugh. I had a very good friend who was ESTJ and she was great. I still miss her.

When she's having a "meltdown" though, Jaye is WAY more perceptive and seems to know what to do automatically. My instinct is to give her space at all times, even when I shouldn't. Jaye knows when to zero in and push a point no matter how hard Mom digs in her heels. I tend to go into the peacemaker role when they both get exasperated.