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  1. #61
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    The point: A model can be constructed in many ways, and if interpretation is based more on the model than the reality from which the model was based, you're barking up the wrong tree.

  2. #62
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flak View Post
    The point: A model can be constructed in many ways, and if interpretation is based more on the model than the reality from which the model was based, you're barking up the wrong tree.
    Oh, sorry, my bad -- thought you were referring to a specific model, not tossing out a metaphor.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  3. #63
    ish red no longer *sad* nightning's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mlittrell View Post
    you dont. im just saying techinically in a function point of view, an ISFP would be COMPLETELY opposite of an ENTP. and there isn't any significance at all. but there isn't any significance in ENTP and ESFP either. at least not an obvious significance. my point with the complete opposite is just to show that you can make up tons of different systems but if they dont apply to the real world, at least with any significance, then they are pointless. imo of course.
    But there is a significance between functions of ENTP vs ESFP.

    Both type will go and look at the situation, see it differently and can potentially come up completely different judgments. That's where most of the misunderstanding comes in. The two argues. The ENTP points out stuff that the ESTP missed, the ESTP has to re-evaluates his judgment and get irritated in the process (Let's face it, who likes to be pointed out their flaws?). Then he STILL disagrees with the ENTP due to the difference of T vs F. That's two strikes against the interaction.

    ISFP being a dominant judger is more likely to take ENTP's word for missed info... It's only a disagreement between T vs F. So one strike vs two.

    Jack: Jennifer was asking whether people feel real life interactions between type reflects this difference in function ordering. Why are you twisting the topic about?

    I have to say my experiences with my parents reflect this. I know my mother means well, but more times than not I find her attempts at conversation intrusive. Whereas the extroverted ESFJ at least doesn't attempt to fish out information from me. They might babble on and on about various things, but I can freely choose to volunteer information or not. If I chose not to, the ESFJ moves on. The ISFJ is rather stuck in the mud once they wrapped their minds on it.

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Oh, sorry, my bad -- thought you were referring to a specific model, not tossing out a metaphor.
    I was. I was comparing my B.S. model with yours. They both stack up about "that high."

  5. #65
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flak View Post
    I was. I was comparing my B.S. model with yours. They both stack up about "that high."
    Hmmm. THAT part is debatable. IMO, you tend to really be sloppy with nuances and lumping your apples with your oranges just because they all smell fruit(y) to you. Whatever -- that's your preference.

    I actually linked this thread to the other forum where the person presented this idea, so she could see the discussion here. After seeing some of the posts here, I'm not really convinced on the ISFP/INTP conflict thing at all.

    My roomie right now is also ISFP, and it's just reaffirming how I felt with my other ISFP friends -- that I get along far better with them than most other types DESPITE any "contrary" function use.

    This might be a case where theory suggests one thing but other factors are involved that negate it.

    I think the similarity of having a Ji/Pe function style is stronger than any differences between what those functions are... for this particular function I/E matchup at least (i.e., I think the Pe aspect, which colors the relationship heavily, immensely reduces conflict). ISFP and INTP in general avoid personal conflict like the plague.

    At worst, you'll get the INTP shooting off casual ideas, but they tend to get delivered through Ne in person (not the Ti), and the ISFP will appreciate them for what they are and just ignore the parts they don't care to entertain. And vice versa, the INTP might think the ISFP does some senseless things at times but enjoys their openness and easy-going nature.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  6. #66
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    You don't seem to take my word for it that I disagree with you based on my observations in THE REAL WORLD. It doesn't matter how much sense your theory makes, because I don't agree. Additionally, theories like functions based on perception and not hard data can be wrapped around or stuffed into whatever model you can think of. I've done it myself for fun, and it makes me feel icky.

  7. #67
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flak View Post
    You don't seem to take my word for it that I disagree with you based on my observations in THE REAL WORLD.
    Okay, let's get THIS much straight.

    Of course I don't take your word for it. Why should I? You're going to actually have to make an ARGUMENT. *gasp*

    And one that is convincing -- not your typical old "Oh, I DISSENT -- so you need to change what you think, because otherwise you're not listening to me."

    You don't seem to get that I'm looking at the Real World too, and I'm think you're WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY off base. That's why I seem to be ignoring your occasional two-sentence posts. I invest more time in people who actually bother to explain themselves better.

    It doesn't matter how much sense your theory makes, because I don't agree. Additionally, theories like functions based on perception and not hard data can be wrapped around or stuffed into whatever model you can think of. I've done it myself for fun, and it makes me feel icky.
    Hmmm. Analyze your "argument" here and see that you're not making an argument -- you're just stating your preferences.

    Which is fine.

    But I'm not going to toss out MY ideas gleaned from my constant scanning of real-world data just because Jack Flak has a different opinion.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  8. #68
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    Yeah, exactly. I'm not going to present an argument, and you can't take it. It's EATING YOU ALIVE! All I hear is "Convince me, Jack, convince me!!!" But I never will, and you'll be left to suffer.

    That is, unless you start listening to Nocapszy and get straightened out.

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flak View Post
    Yeah, exactly. I'm not going to present an argument, and you can't take it. It's EATING YOU ALIVE! All I hear is "Convince me, Jack, convince me!!!" But I never will, and you'll be left to suffer.


    I have to admit, you do make me laugh good-naturedly, with the way you leave people touching nothing but air when they try to pin you in a corner. You are damned slick.

    I can respect that at some level.
    (Unfortunately, because of its nature, I can't engage it.)

    That is, unless you start listening to Nocapszy and get straightened out.
    Hmmm.... I'd love to lock the two of you in a room and see what happens.
    *adds to lifetime 'to-do' list*
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  10. #70
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Personally I'm sticking with my "alien" type theory. ESFP should be the antithesis to an INTP. ISFPs are at least decent enough to be quiet
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

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