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  1. #1
    Senior Member wildcat's Avatar
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    Smile Water for My Absinthe

    Keirsey has come in handy!

    Yeah I read something of the guy once.

    Apples and oranges.

    Bitte, bitte.

    Blend it man, blend it! Potch potch.. into hotch potch.. into hodge podge..
    into olla podrida.. hash hash.. gallimaufry.. salmagundi.

    A palatable plate, eh?

    It is like drinking absinthe without hot water. The sugar gets stuck in your throat.

    The 'Keirsey Stratagem' - What Is It and Can It Help Us to Clarify the Relationship Between the Enneagram and MBTI?

    Enjoy

  2. #2
    Senior Member wildcat's Avatar
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    I have to say a word for Keirsey though. His description of the ESTJ is estimable.
    Also, Keirsey has the sense to deal only with four functions. He is not stupid.

    There are many INTJs here. And I see more are coming in. Now I feel tested to ask the INTJ guys a little query. Nothing grand. Just a little query.

    INTJ: Information from Answers.com

    Here you see your cognitive functions in a nice and neat order.

    Ni Te Fi Se Ne Ti Fe Si

    Introverted non-feeler has got more introverted feeling (Fi) than what an introverted feeler has?

    Oranges are apples now?

    Are there any INFJs here at present? I have something for you as well.

    INFJ: Information from Answers.com

    Take a look at your MBTI cognitive functions

    Ni Fe Ti Se Ne Fi Te Si

    You as an introverted feeler have got less introverted feeling (Fi) than what the introverted non feeler has got?
    Do you think it is right?

    Apples are oranges now?

  3. #3
    Senior Member wildcat's Avatar
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    All the INTJs and the INFJs are obviously in the church.

    Did Jung's functions- for Jung- stand in an inverse relationship?

    Another question: Is the MBTI function order an inverse function order?

    In an inverse system Fi can directly follow Te only if Te is the fourth function.

    In the preceding model above the INTJ has Te as the second function. It is all right and sound. But. In an inverse relationship this means Fi is the 7th function.

    Either his functions for him are in an inverse order or not. If they are, then it follows MBTI should also have the functions in an inverse order.

    Or MBTI is not about Jung.

  4. #4
    Senior Member wildcat's Avatar
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    OK. I went back to the ESTJ profile descriptions.
    They are clear cut and definite.
    And what is the summing up verdict I perceive among the bushes?

    It is that they dislike the I, N and P ideas and ideals, to say nothing about the people themselves.

    Functionwise, where do we find the I, N, and the P, in the order the ESTJ mind?
    Ni taking the 8th place? Wait a little.
    Because we have the P as well in the trash box of the ESTJ, we have to choose Ne under Ni.
    I and P combine IP in a double suit hence with a T type we choose Fi under Ni. Logical, eh?

    And what we should have as the three most inferior functions of the ESTJ in this empiric observation? The 6th and 7th and 8th of the order?
    Ni, Ne and Fi, respectively.

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    ESTJ: Information from Answers.com

    Of course we can discard the empiric hand.
    Alas what do then the type profiles stand for? They do match the empiric material perfectly.

    But they do not match the function order. Silly, is it not?

  5. #5
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Okay clear something up for me pal, what's inverse order got to do with the function order? What is last? Do you mean they work out the eight first? Are you saying that each type is defined by it's weakest point (it's 8th function)?

    The only thing I can find which specifically regards inverse order is a financial term so I'm intuiting the blanks here.

    Btw, I'm working through that Keirsey stuff and whoever wrote it isn't much good with patterns. Of course SP, SJ, NT & NF is exhaustive and exclusive. Also thinking about it those grouping do describe quite well the broader picture of the types. NT, whichever you look at, all share a certain similarity which is quite prominent. NF, they all share a certain commonality which isn't too hard to pick up on. I think that NP and NJ are more difficult to differentiate due to the way that N works and that SF and ST are also similarly difficult to differentiate due to how S works.

    Sorry if this is away from what you wanted to discuss but so far I have failed to find your meaning.
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  6. #6
    Senior Member wildcat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    Okay clear something up for me pal, what's inverse order got to do with the function order? What is last? Do you mean they work out the eight first? Are you saying that each type is defined by it's weakest point (it's 8th function)?

    The only thing I can find which specifically regards inverse order is a financial term so I'm intuiting the blanks here.

    Btw, I'm working through that Keirsey stuff and whoever wrote it isn't much good with patterns. Of course SP, SJ, NT & NF is exhaustive and exclusive. Also thinking about it those grouping do describe quite well the broader picture of the types. NT, whichever you look at, all share a certain similarity which is quite prominent. NF, they all share a certain commonality which isn't too hard to pick up on. I think that NP and NJ are more difficult to differentiate due to the way that N works and that SF and ST are also similarly difficult to differentiate due to how S works.

    Sorry if this is away from what you wanted to discuss but so far I have failed to find your meaning.
    Keirsey came in handy. He is not the object of discussion. Of course he is correct, in the broad sense. P/J is a triangle, united by N: separated by S.

    Unwittingly RC and BW found the rock bottom. In the question of the function order. The function order is not a monolith. However, the basic inverse model corresponds the fundamental INTP type. In the inverse model

    9>Ti 1 hence Fe 8
    9>Ne 2 hence Si 7
    9>Ni 3 hence Se 6
    9>Te 4 hence Fi 5

    I came to this again because the discussion in another thread matched my own experience.

  7. #7
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Errm are you adding up the function's positional numbers?

    You know that you will just find that your eventually counting fence posts? Eight positions are on eight fence panels. Eight fence panels require nine fence posts.

    If this is what fascinates you I sympathise. It took me twenty odd years till someone dropped that bombshell on me. Suddenly my intuitional "errors" had foundation and I no longer suspected the entire numerical system of being a scam
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  8. #8
    Senior Member wildcat's Avatar
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    It is not a scam dear boy

    Let us look at the inverse, at the other side! We shall have no more problems. The days of penury are over.

    Jung is right. If God exists, the devil as a counterweight exists, too.

    INTP Ti = 9 - 1 = 8 = ESFJ Fe = 9 - 8 = 1

    which means that what INTP has as the 1st function ESFJ has as the 8th function.

    The countermeasure.

    As we look at the inverse we countermeasure.

  9. #9
    Senior Member wildcat's Avatar
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    I used to take pictures.

    The idea of photography is to negate.
    Negative is the other side.

    Everything upside down.

    First we had only the black and white film.
    Black is white in the negative because it is the result of negation.

    Black is the other side of white. Every photographer used to know this.
    White is the other side of black.

    Then came colour photography.
    Green is the other side of red. Blue is the other side of yellow.

    The inverse order is not inverse on the other side.

    I am not discussing if the number for a function should be 9 or what.

    9 comes in handy.

    Lawn is greener on the other side. It is less green on our side. It is the same lawn.

    I say the number of a function is 9. If you find a better number go ahead. A trifle.

    And in the MBTI, how many functions do we have?

    Four.

    Ti/Fe; Fi/Te; Ni/Se; Si/Ne

    If Ti/Fe = a
    - what is Fi/Te?

    If Ti/Fe = 9 and Ti = 5, Fe = 4; INFP
    hence Te/Fi = 9 and Te = 1, Fi = 8; ESTJ
    hence INFP has Fi 1 (first in order) and Te 8 (least in order).

  10. #10
    Senior Member wildcat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    Wildcat are you OCD or something?
    I am not OCD. I do not know what is or something.

    Do you regard yourself an extraverted intuitive type?

    If not, why?

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