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Water for My Absinthe

wildcat

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INTP

wildcat

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INTP
I have to say a word for Keirsey though. His description of the ESTJ is estimable.
Also, Keirsey has the sense to deal only with four functions. He is not stupid.

There are many INTJs here. And I see more are coming in. Now I feel tested to ask the INTJ guys a little query. Nothing grand. Just a little query.

INTJ: Information from Answers.com

Here you see your cognitive functions in a nice and neat order.

Ni Te Fi Se Ne Ti Fe Si

Introverted non-feeler has got more introverted feeling (Fi) than what an introverted feeler has?

Oranges are apples now?

Are there any INFJs here at present? I have something for you as well.

INFJ: Information from Answers.com

Take a look at your MBTI cognitive functions

Ni Fe Ti Se Ne Fi Te Si

You as an introverted feeler have got less introverted feeling (Fi) than what the introverted non feeler has got?
Do you think it is right?

Apples are oranges now?
 

wildcat

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All the INTJs and the INFJs are obviously in the church.

Did Jung's functions- for Jung- stand in an inverse relationship?

Another question: Is the MBTI function order an inverse function order?

In an inverse system Fi can directly follow Te only if Te is the fourth function.

In the preceding model above the INTJ has Te as the second function. It is all right and sound. But. In an inverse relationship this means Fi is the 7th function.

Either his functions for him are in an inverse order or not. If they are, then it follows MBTI should also have the functions in an inverse order.

Or MBTI is not about Jung.
 

wildcat

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OK. I went back to the ESTJ profile descriptions.
They are clear cut and definite.
And what is the summing up verdict I perceive among the bushes?

It is that they dislike the I, N and P ideas and ideals, to say nothing about the people themselves.

Functionwise, where do we find the I, N, and the P, in the order the ESTJ mind?
Ni taking the 8th place? Wait a little.
Because we have the P as well in the trash box of the ESTJ, we have to choose Ne under Ni.
I and P combine IP in a double suit hence with a T type we choose Fi under Ni. Logical, eh?

And what we should have as the three most inferior functions of the ESTJ in this empiric observation? The 6th and 7th and 8th of the order?
Ni, Ne and Fi, respectively.

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ESTJ: Information from Answers.com

Of course we can discard the empiric hand.
Alas what do then the type profiles stand for? They do match the empiric material perfectly.

But they do not match the function order. Silly, is it not?
 

Xander

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9w8
Okay clear something up for me pal, what's inverse order got to do with the function order? What is last? Do you mean they work out the eight first? Are you saying that each type is defined by it's weakest point (it's 8th function)?

The only thing I can find which specifically regards inverse order is a financial term so I'm intuiting the blanks here.

Btw, I'm working through that Keirsey stuff and whoever wrote it isn't much good with patterns. Of course SP, SJ, NT & NF is exhaustive and exclusive. Also thinking about it those grouping do describe quite well the broader picture of the types. NT, whichever you look at, all share a certain similarity which is quite prominent. NF, they all share a certain commonality which isn't too hard to pick up on. I think that NP and NJ are more difficult to differentiate due to the way that N works and that SF and ST are also similarly difficult to differentiate due to how S works.

Sorry if this is away from what you wanted to discuss but so far I have failed to find your meaning.
 

wildcat

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Okay clear something up for me pal, what's inverse order got to do with the function order? What is last? Do you mean they work out the eight first? Are you saying that each type is defined by it's weakest point (it's 8th function)?

The only thing I can find which specifically regards inverse order is a financial term so I'm intuiting the blanks here.

Btw, I'm working through that Keirsey stuff and whoever wrote it isn't much good with patterns. Of course SP, SJ, NT & NF is exhaustive and exclusive. Also thinking about it those grouping do describe quite well the broader picture of the types. NT, whichever you look at, all share a certain similarity which is quite prominent. NF, they all share a certain commonality which isn't too hard to pick up on. I think that NP and NJ are more difficult to differentiate due to the way that N works and that SF and ST are also similarly difficult to differentiate due to how S works.

Sorry if this is away from what you wanted to discuss but so far I have failed to find your meaning.
Keirsey came in handy. He is not the object of discussion. Of course he is correct, in the broad sense. P/J is a triangle, united by N: separated by S.

Unwittingly RC and BW found the rock bottom. In the question of the function order. The function order is not a monolith. However, the basic inverse model corresponds the fundamental INTP type. In the inverse model

9>Ti 1 hence Fe 8
9>Ne 2 hence Si 7
9>Ni 3 hence Se 6
9>Te 4 hence Fi 5

I came to this again because the discussion in another thread matched my own experience.
 

Xander

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Errm are you adding up the function's positional numbers?

You know that you will just find that your eventually counting fence posts? Eight positions are on eight fence panels. Eight fence panels require nine fence posts.

If this is what fascinates you I sympathise. It took me twenty odd years till someone dropped that bombshell on me. Suddenly my intuitional "errors" had foundation and I no longer suspected the entire numerical system of being a scam :)
 

wildcat

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:) It is not a scam dear boy :)

:) Let us look at the inverse, at the other side! We shall have no more problems. The days of penury are over.

Jung is right. If God exists, the devil as a counterweight exists, too.

INTP Ti = 9 - 1 = 8 = ESFJ Fe = 9 - 8 = 1

which means that what INTP has as the 1st function ESFJ has as the 8th function.

The countermeasure.

As we look at the inverse we countermeasure. :yes:
 

wildcat

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I used to take pictures.

The idea of photography is to negate.
Negative is the other side.

Everything upside down.

First we had only the black and white film.
Black is white in the negative because it is the result of negation.

Black is the other side of white. Every photographer used to know this.
White is the other side of black.

Then came colour photography.
Green is the other side of red. Blue is the other side of yellow.

The inverse order is not inverse on the other side.

I am not discussing if the number for a function should be 9 or what.

9 comes in handy.

Lawn is greener on the other side. It is less green on our side. It is the same lawn.

I say the number of a function is 9. If you find a better number go ahead. A trifle.

And in the MBTI, how many functions do we have?

Four.

Ti/Fe; Fi/Te; Ni/Se; Si/Ne

If Ti/Fe = a
- what is Fi/Te?

If Ti/Fe = 9 and Ti = 5, Fe = 4; INFP
hence Te/Fi = 9 and Te = 1, Fi = 8; ESTJ
hence INFP has Fi 1 (first in order) and Te 8 (least in order).
 

Xander

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My dearest Wildcat,
9 is not useful. It is merely the result. Knowing that 1+1=2 does not make 2 useful it merely makes it the result of the sum.

Ti + Fe does not equal 9. It only equals Ti + Fe. 1+8=9 but what does that mean? Sure knowing the opposites and such helps in sorting out the standard order of the archetypical person of that type but firstly you'd have to know what is opposite to what and then do the math... it'd be easier to lit the first four in order of importance and the write their opposites next to them in another column. Then you simply read down column one and up column two. No numbers.. no math.. simple.
 

wildcat

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:) ok


Let us forget the numbers for a minute. :shock:


I am :party2:


:cry:


:) Do you consider the ENFJ to be an intuitive extravert?
 

Xander

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:) ok


Let us forget the numbers for a minute. :shock:


I am :party2:


:cry:


:) Do you consider the ENFJ to be an intuitive extravert?
Nice try ol' bean but I checked.

I do consider the ENFJ to be an intuitive extrovert even though their preference is for introverted intuition. This is because it is the intuition which is introverted and not the person.
 

wildcat

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Nice try ol' bean but I checked.

I do consider the ENFJ to be an intuitive extrovert even though their preference is for introverted intuition. This is because it is the intuition which is introverted and not the person.
I knew you would check.
That ENFJ did not go into the trap either. Or maybe he was just negligent.

The ENFJs are intuitive extroverts with a preference against extroverted intuition. According to the MBTI function order according to Answers.com.

And it is not just a semantic quibble.

It does not matter on which side of the lawn you stand. It is still one lawn.
You do not go to fish beyond the lake.

I accept that the ENFJ has a preference for intuitive introversion over extroverted intuition. This is because she is a J.

But. The P follows at the heels.
Immediately.
 

Xander

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I knew you would check.
That ENFJ did not go into the trap either. Or maybe he was just negligent.

The ENFJs are intuitive extroverts with a preference against extroverted intuition. According to the MBTI function order according to Answers.com.

And it is not just a semantic quibble.

It does not matter on which side of the lawn you stand. It is still one lawn.
You do not go to fish beyond the lake.

I accept that the ENFJ has a preference for intuitive introversion over extroverted intuition. This is because she is a J.

But. The P follows at the heels.
Immediately.
:hug: You know someday I'm going to catch you out and follow you perfectly through the parallels :)

So if you accept that just because a person is an Extrovert and is Intuitive that this does not mean that they use Ne then what's your point? How does this link back to the whole 9 thing?

See no what I think your doing (note I don't profess to know and nor do I assume I'm anywhere close, hence I'm telling you what I hear so you know) is looking for a pattern to the pattern. This I see as not very useful for similar reasons to why my father doesn't like speed dial on his phone. If you have speed dial on the phone at home then you can remember that say number 1 is my home number, so he can speed dial #1 and call me at home. However when he is not at home then he must either remember or have written down what my home phone number is in full as his speed dialling phone is at home. This means that now instead of the speed dialling helping him to remember numbers, he now has an additional number to remember. Do you see what I mean?

If there is a pattern to the function order then that pattern must be stated clearly and concisely. It is a distraction to then take the positional numerical values and create a pattern with those. Yes position one and position eight when their numerical positional values are added together you get nine but what is on position one? What type does that indicate? None. Without the actual function occupying the positions they mean nothing and hence why it is a distraction to look at the numbers. It is the functions themselves which are important and not the positional value assigned to them.

Does that make sense?
 

wildcat

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:hug: You know someday I'm going to catch you out and follow you perfectly through the parallels :)

So if you accept that just because a person is an Extrovert and is Intuitive that this does not mean that they use Ne then what's your point? How does this link back to the whole 9 thing?

See no what I think your doing (note I don't profess to know and nor do I assume I'm anywhere close, hence I'm telling you what I hear so you know) is looking for a pattern to the pattern. This I see as not very useful for similar reasons to why my father doesn't like speed dial on his phone. If you have speed dial on the phone at home then you can remember that say number 1 is my home number, so he can speed dial #1 and call me at home. However when he is not at home then he must either remember or have written down what my home phone number is in full as his speed dialling phone is at home. This means that now instead of the speed dialling helping him to remember numbers, he now has an additional number to remember. Do you see what I mean?

If there is a pattern to the function order then that pattern must be stated clearly and concisely. It is a distraction to then take the positional numerical values and create a pattern with those. Yes position one and position eight when their numerical positional values are added together you get nine but what is on position one? What type does that indicate? None. Without the actual function occupying the positions they mean nothing and hence why it is a distraction to look at the numbers. It is the functions themselves which are important and not the positional value assigned to them.

Does that make sense?
It is simple to find a medial order in an empiric study. You just add. The upshot you then divide according to the number of the participants.

Take a sound look at the cognitive processes tests and their results.

Find the medial order. The average. You know how to do it.


The number 9 does not have a place.

You remember the analogy about the railway stations?

The stations stay put. The trains move.

Einstein suggested we do not know what moves. In the principle level, of course he is right.

Do the stretches between the stations correspond the number of the stations?

No.

The principle of the mistake is deeply rooted in our culture. Therefore we do not see it.
 

Xander

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Right I know you don't like me splitting posts but I'm going to go through this a little more piecemeal to see if I can find the divergence between our thinking.
It is simple to find a medial order in an empiric study. You just add. The upshot you then divide according to the number of the participants.

Take a sound look at the cognitive processes tests and their results.

Find the medial order. The average. You know how to do it.
Question #1 would be "Add what?" but I think that's irrelevant.

The average result of the functions is meaningless as the primary is divided sixteen ways, as is the secondary and so on. Unless you figure in the percentage portion of population with each type then you'd end up with a flat line on your graph showing nothing.

I am intuiting that perhaps a better word would be pattern or base pattern (okay that's a phrase but you know what I mean... I hope). The basic pattern as we were discussing those many moons ago on MBTIc as it was produced some of the most helpful thinking on processes I've encountered but it wasn't regarding numbers or what total you get if you add them all up (I presume that works for you to help you remember and/ or understand but to me it's just a number). My personal gem that I found during that conversation was the identifying of what "switches" existed.

Say you started with ESTJ you'd have
Te Si Ne Fi
okay now flick the E/I switch and go to ISTJ
Si Te Fi Ne
okay so flick the E/I switch back and flick the S/N switch instead, making ENTJ
Te Ni Se Fi
Now flick that back and flick the P/J switch making ESTP
Se Ti Fe Ni

That kinda shows how the whole system runs and so from a fixed starting position you can progress to any other types function order. However you have to know one function order first.

If we could work from that then we should be able to produce a concise method of working out function orders from types.
The number 9 does not have a place.
In the words of the famous ENTP "well you started it".

Why were you quoting 9 as the answer if it has no place?
You remember the analogy about the railway stations?

The stations stay put. The trains move.

Einstein suggested we do not know what moves. In the principle level, of course he is right.

Do the stretches between the stations correspond the number of the stations?

No.

The principle of the mistake is deeply rooted in our culture. Therefore we do not see it.
Okay you lost me there.

I believe your thinking that the whole thing about fence posts and fence panels is leading to the idea that the distance between two fence posts is relevant..it's not.
Count to 7.
1,2,3,4,5,6&7. 7 is the last number and there are 7 numbers there. However that would be counting the fence panels.
To count the fence posts, depending on your philosophy, it's 0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7. That's still ending in seven but it counts eight numbers because it acknowledges your starting position and that you do touch on eight numbers when counting to seven.

Does this clear things up a little?
 

wildcat

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ENFJ Fe Ni Ne Fi Te Si Se Ti

should be the medial; if you turn it around you should get ISTP

I place the Ni as the second function for the ENFJ and the Ne as her third.

I think we agree about the Ni.

I have Ne as the third function.

The problem is that we do not have many ENFJs here.

So this is what we do.

We make her an INTP.

ENFJ Fe Ni Ne Fi Te Si Se Ti

it follows ISTP is Ti Se Si Te Fi Ne Ni Fe

it follows INTP is Ti Ne Ni Te Fi Se Si Fe

it follows if INTP has as medial Se as her sixth function ENFJ has Ne as the third function. Because 3 + 6 = 9.

I said stupidly. I said in the literal meaning: The 9 has no place = it is not one of the loci = therefore we can use it. It comes in handy.
 

runvardh

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If it helps you see personality types easier, wildcat, have fun...
 

wildcat

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I do. Do you as an INFP see yourself as an introverted intuiter?

Would you say you are naturally inclined towards your Ni function?

Or maybe it appears only under stress?
 
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