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  1. #21
    Senior Member wildcat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    Right I know you don't like me splitting posts but I'm going to go through this a little more piecemeal to see if I can find the divergence between our thinking.

    Question #1 would be "Add what?" but I think that's irrelevant.

    The average result of the functions is meaningless as the primary is divided sixteen ways, as is the secondary and so on. Unless you figure in the percentage portion of population with each type then you'd end up with a flat line on your graph showing nothing.

    I am intuiting that perhaps a better word would be pattern or base pattern (okay that's a phrase but you know what I mean... I hope). The basic pattern as we were discussing those many moons ago on MBTIc as it was produced some of the most helpful thinking on processes I've encountered but it wasn't regarding numbers or what total you get if you add them all up (I presume that works for you to help you remember and/ or understand but to me it's just a number). My personal gem that I found during that conversation was the identifying of what "switches" existed.

    Say you started with ESTJ you'd have
    Te Si Ne Fi
    okay now flick the E/I switch and go to ISTJ
    Si Te Fi Ne
    okay so flick the E/I switch back and flick the S/N switch instead, making ENTJ
    Te Ni Se Fi
    Now flick that back and flick the P/J switch making ESTP
    Se Ti Fe Ni

    That kinda shows how the whole system runs and so from a fixed starting position you can progress to any other types function order. However you have to know one function order first.

    If we could work from that then we should be able to produce a concise method of working out function orders from types.

    In the words of the famous ENTP "well you started it".

    Why were you quoting 9 as the answer if it has no place?

    Okay you lost me there.

    I believe your thinking that the whole thing about fence posts and fence panels is leading to the idea that the distance between two fence posts is relevant..it's not.
    Count to 7.
    1,2,3,4,5,6&7. 7 is the last number and there are 7 numbers there. However that would be counting the fence panels.
    To count the fence posts, depending on your philosophy, it's 0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7. That's still ending in seven but it counts eight numbers because it acknowledges your starting position and that you do touch on eight numbers when counting to seven.

    Does this clear things up a little?
    I see now we are in a real mess, old boy. The fault is entirely mine, though.
    I have difficulty to get rid of the asperger notion that everybody knows what is in my head. And therefore the expression is slippy at time.

    English is the language of idioms, yes. The 9 has a place. It is the odd piece.

    With the average I mean the majority. The idea of a parlamentary democracy is that it represents the majority. When you look at the cognitive processes thread, you see what is the majority function order for INTP.
    The majority function order has significance because it represents the media.
    The average.
    In Germany at one time the majority of people were for Hitler; we could say that the average opinion was that Hitler was good for Germany.

    I take a train in Travemunde and go to Bremen.

    1. Station: Travemunde.
    1. Stretch.
    2. Station: Lubeck.
    2. Stretch.
    3. Station: Hamburg.
    3. Stretch.
    4. Station. Bremen.

    The Travemunde Station is not a zero station. It exists. I know. I have been there.

    You are right. If we know the one base pattern we know them all.
    The difficulty is to agree about the one

  2. #22
    Senior Member wildcat's Avatar
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    I say the base pattern for INTP is Ti Ne Ni Te Fi Se Si Fe.

    Answers.Com gives the sanctioned MBTI pattern which is very different from this. The holy writ.

    Then there is the MBTI Wikipedia. A contradiction again.

    Then there is the Cognitive Processes thread in the intpc. The results of the INTP members.

    What is the typical function order of the results? Accepting the individual variance.

    Look at these three models. Then look at the cognitive processes results.
    Whose model is it that fits like a glove?

    Given the individual variance, of course.

    Why do some of these authors give Si in place of Ni? Because of a few writings of Jung which they misinterpret? Why do they not use their head?

    You cannot replace logic.

  3. #23
    Senior Member wildcat's Avatar
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    What is the difference bw the INTP Ti and the ISTP Ti?

    The primary function of the S is conscious.
    The primary function of the N however is unconscious.

    There exists no other difference.

    The conscious/unconcious variance is not about logic.

    Nor is it about S or N per se.

    Nor is it about the order in the unit.

    INTP: Ti Ne. Does Ne check the Ti? No.
    Ti checks the Ne.

    ISTP: Ti Se. Does Se check the Ti? No.
    Ti checks the Se.

    Why? Because the station does not move when the train moves. Or vice versa.

  4. #24
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    I understand the 9 now and it's use.

    You have paired off the functions, opposites together.
    Te with Fi
    Ne with Si and so on.

    Where one is in position x the other is in position 9-x. That is what you are trying to express I think.

    My point was that for an XXXX what is the first function? I think that once that is established then we can formulate a singular pattern theory which should then allow us to construct the function order off minimal information.

    As to your use of average, it makes much more sense in that context. You meant average example. I understand that bit now.

    Logic however, I think you grant it too much credit. Logic does not say whether your functions should run XXXXYYYY (X being your prefered functions and Y being their opposite) or XXYYXXYY. We have discussed that before.

    I think that one thing to realise in regards to typing systems is that no one is identified by that system. I have never met an ENTJ. I have met someone who falls within the broad category labelled ENTJ but he was not the alpha model, the person for whom the type was written, the benchmark. As such then perhaps XXXXYYYY is the function model for the person who does not exist and hence why I find the model unrealistic?
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  5. #25
    Senior Member wildcat's Avatar
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    Why then the ESTJs are good in basic math?
    Because they follow the rules.

    Do they understand the principle behind the rules?

    Does it matter?

  6. #26
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wildcat View Post
    What is the difference bw the INTP Ti and the ISTP Ti?

    The primary function of the S is conscious.
    The primary function of the N however is unconscious.

    There exists no other difference.
    Whoa!!! Gross over simplification!! There are vast differences in function between S and N. The location of the information which they draw from is more of a detail than anything and, I'd say, far too specialised to represent the difference in any broad measure.
    Quote Originally Posted by wildcat View Post
    The conscious/unconcious variance is not about logic.

    Nor is it about S or N per se.

    Nor is it about the order in the unit.

    INTP: Ti Ne. Does Ne check the Ti? No.
    Ti checks the Ne.

    ISTP: Ti Se. Does Se check the Ti? No.
    Ti checks the Se.
    Only because they are I. Well that's my first theory.

    Do introverts check their information and extroverts check their working out?
    Quote Originally Posted by wildcat View Post
    Why? Because the station does not move when the train moves. Or vice versa.
    Okay that just throws me completely. Consider me the sleepers on which your train just passed straight over
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  7. #27
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wildcat View Post
    Why then the ESTJs are good in basic math?
    Te probably.
    Quote Originally Posted by wildcat View Post
    Because they follow the rules.
    SJ
    Quote Originally Posted by wildcat View Post
    Do they understand the principle behind the rules?

    Does it matter?
    To the NT sitting next to him it would matter but I'm fairly certain that the ST would see it more as cause and effect. The effect validating the cause. Ergo they do not need to understand why it works, only that it works and should be applied in similar situations (ok to us it looks like they have to be identical situations but that's cause were Ns ).
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  8. #28
    にゃん runvardh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wildcat View Post
    I do. Do you as an INFP see yourself as an introverted intuiter?

    Would you say you are naturally inclined towards your Ni function?

    Or maybe it appears only under stress?
    It feels more like a function I have to consciously engage. Ne on the other hand is what got me caring enough to read in the first place and I have that on automatically.

  9. #29
    Senior Member wildcat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by runvardh View Post
    It feels more like a function I have to consciously engage. Ne on the other hand is what got me caring enough to read in the first place and I have that on automatically.
    So Ni is your shadow function.
    Do you know your function order?
    Would you like to do the Cognitive Processes Test and give here the results?

  10. #30
    Senior Member wildcat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    Te probably.

    SJ

    To the NT sitting next to him it would matter but I'm fairly certain that the ST would see it more as cause and effect. The effect validating the cause. Ergo they do not need to understand why it works, only that it works and should be applied in similar situations (ok to us it looks like they have to be identical situations but that's cause were Ns ).
    Okay. Agreed so far.

    But this thing is not cleared yet.

    The ESTJ has Si as the auxiliary function. I agree.

    Answers.Com gives Si as the 3rd function for the INFP.

    INFP is the exact opposite of the ESTJ.

    The functions do not correspond the letters?

    What are the letters there for? If they do not have any consequence whatever?

    Answers.Com gives the reason for the high place of the Si in the INFP.
    It is absent mindedness. Si makes the INFP absent minded.

    Why the Si does not make the ESTJ absent minded at all? The ESTJ has even more Si.

    Is absent mindedness a character of Si?

    Do you think my questions are relevant?

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