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  1. #11
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    My dearest Wildcat,
    9 is not useful. It is merely the result. Knowing that 1+1=2 does not make 2 useful it merely makes it the result of the sum.

    Ti + Fe does not equal 9. It only equals Ti + Fe. 1+8=9 but what does that mean? Sure knowing the opposites and such helps in sorting out the standard order of the archetypical person of that type but firstly you'd have to know what is opposite to what and then do the math... it'd be easier to lit the first four in order of importance and the write their opposites next to them in another column. Then you simply read down column one and up column two. No numbers.. no math.. simple.
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  2. #12
    Senior Member wildcat's Avatar
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    ok


    Let us forget the numbers for a minute.


    I am





    Do you consider the ENFJ to be an intuitive extravert?

  3. #13
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wildcat View Post
    ok


    Let us forget the numbers for a minute.


    I am





    Do you consider the ENFJ to be an intuitive extravert?
    Nice try ol' bean but I checked.

    I do consider the ENFJ to be an intuitive extrovert even though their preference is for introverted intuition. This is because it is the intuition which is introverted and not the person.
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  4. #14
    Senior Member wildcat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    Nice try ol' bean but I checked.

    I do consider the ENFJ to be an intuitive extrovert even though their preference is for introverted intuition. This is because it is the intuition which is introverted and not the person.
    I knew you would check.
    That ENFJ did not go into the trap either. Or maybe he was just negligent.

    The ENFJs are intuitive extroverts with a preference against extroverted intuition. According to the MBTI function order according to Answers.com.

    And it is not just a semantic quibble.

    It does not matter on which side of the lawn you stand. It is still one lawn.
    You do not go to fish beyond the lake.

    I accept that the ENFJ has a preference for intuitive introversion over extroverted intuition. This is because she is a J.

    But. The P follows at the heels.
    Immediately.

  5. #15
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wildcat View Post
    I knew you would check.
    That ENFJ did not go into the trap either. Or maybe he was just negligent.

    The ENFJs are intuitive extroverts with a preference against extroverted intuition. According to the MBTI function order according to Answers.com.

    And it is not just a semantic quibble.

    It does not matter on which side of the lawn you stand. It is still one lawn.
    You do not go to fish beyond the lake.

    I accept that the ENFJ has a preference for intuitive introversion over extroverted intuition. This is because she is a J.

    But. The P follows at the heels.
    Immediately.
    You know someday I'm going to catch you out and follow you perfectly through the parallels

    So if you accept that just because a person is an Extrovert and is Intuitive that this does not mean that they use Ne then what's your point? How does this link back to the whole 9 thing?

    See no what I think your doing (note I don't profess to know and nor do I assume I'm anywhere close, hence I'm telling you what I hear so you know) is looking for a pattern to the pattern. This I see as not very useful for similar reasons to why my father doesn't like speed dial on his phone. If you have speed dial on the phone at home then you can remember that say number 1 is my home number, so he can speed dial #1 and call me at home. However when he is not at home then he must either remember or have written down what my home phone number is in full as his speed dialling phone is at home. This means that now instead of the speed dialling helping him to remember numbers, he now has an additional number to remember. Do you see what I mean?

    If there is a pattern to the function order then that pattern must be stated clearly and concisely. It is a distraction to then take the positional numerical values and create a pattern with those. Yes position one and position eight when their numerical positional values are added together you get nine but what is on position one? What type does that indicate? None. Without the actual function occupying the positions they mean nothing and hence why it is a distraction to look at the numbers. It is the functions themselves which are important and not the positional value assigned to them.

    Does that make sense?
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  6. #16
    Senior Member wildcat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    You know someday I'm going to catch you out and follow you perfectly through the parallels

    So if you accept that just because a person is an Extrovert and is Intuitive that this does not mean that they use Ne then what's your point? How does this link back to the whole 9 thing?

    See no what I think your doing (note I don't profess to know and nor do I assume I'm anywhere close, hence I'm telling you what I hear so you know) is looking for a pattern to the pattern. This I see as not very useful for similar reasons to why my father doesn't like speed dial on his phone. If you have speed dial on the phone at home then you can remember that say number 1 is my home number, so he can speed dial #1 and call me at home. However when he is not at home then he must either remember or have written down what my home phone number is in full as his speed dialling phone is at home. This means that now instead of the speed dialling helping him to remember numbers, he now has an additional number to remember. Do you see what I mean?

    If there is a pattern to the function order then that pattern must be stated clearly and concisely. It is a distraction to then take the positional numerical values and create a pattern with those. Yes position one and position eight when their numerical positional values are added together you get nine but what is on position one? What type does that indicate? None. Without the actual function occupying the positions they mean nothing and hence why it is a distraction to look at the numbers. It is the functions themselves which are important and not the positional value assigned to them.

    Does that make sense?
    It is simple to find a medial order in an empiric study. You just add. The upshot you then divide according to the number of the participants.

    Take a sound look at the cognitive processes tests and their results.

    Find the medial order. The average. You know how to do it.


    The number 9 does not have a place.

    You remember the analogy about the railway stations?

    The stations stay put. The trains move.

    Einstein suggested we do not know what moves. In the principle level, of course he is right.

    Do the stretches between the stations correspond the number of the stations?

    No.

    The principle of the mistake is deeply rooted in our culture. Therefore we do not see it.

  7. #17
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Right I know you don't like me splitting posts but I'm going to go through this a little more piecemeal to see if I can find the divergence between our thinking.
    Quote Originally Posted by wildcat View Post
    It is simple to find a medial order in an empiric study. You just add. The upshot you then divide according to the number of the participants.

    Take a sound look at the cognitive processes tests and their results.

    Find the medial order. The average. You know how to do it.
    Question #1 would be "Add what?" but I think that's irrelevant.

    The average result of the functions is meaningless as the primary is divided sixteen ways, as is the secondary and so on. Unless you figure in the percentage portion of population with each type then you'd end up with a flat line on your graph showing nothing.

    I am intuiting that perhaps a better word would be pattern or base pattern (okay that's a phrase but you know what I mean... I hope). The basic pattern as we were discussing those many moons ago on MBTIc as it was produced some of the most helpful thinking on processes I've encountered but it wasn't regarding numbers or what total you get if you add them all up (I presume that works for you to help you remember and/ or understand but to me it's just a number). My personal gem that I found during that conversation was the identifying of what "switches" existed.

    Say you started with ESTJ you'd have
    Te Si Ne Fi
    okay now flick the E/I switch and go to ISTJ
    Si Te Fi Ne
    okay so flick the E/I switch back and flick the S/N switch instead, making ENTJ
    Te Ni Se Fi
    Now flick that back and flick the P/J switch making ESTP
    Se Ti Fe Ni

    That kinda shows how the whole system runs and so from a fixed starting position you can progress to any other types function order. However you have to know one function order first.

    If we could work from that then we should be able to produce a concise method of working out function orders from types.
    Quote Originally Posted by wildcat View Post
    The number 9 does not have a place.
    In the words of the famous ENTP "well you started it".

    Why were you quoting 9 as the answer if it has no place?
    Quote Originally Posted by wildcat View Post
    You remember the analogy about the railway stations?

    The stations stay put. The trains move.

    Einstein suggested we do not know what moves. In the principle level, of course he is right.

    Do the stretches between the stations correspond the number of the stations?

    No.

    The principle of the mistake is deeply rooted in our culture. Therefore we do not see it.
    Okay you lost me there.

    I believe your thinking that the whole thing about fence posts and fence panels is leading to the idea that the distance between two fence posts is relevant..it's not.
    Count to 7.
    1,2,3,4,5,6&7. 7 is the last number and there are 7 numbers there. However that would be counting the fence panels.
    To count the fence posts, depending on your philosophy, it's 0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7. That's still ending in seven but it counts eight numbers because it acknowledges your starting position and that you do touch on eight numbers when counting to seven.

    Does this clear things up a little?
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  8. #18
    Senior Member wildcat's Avatar
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    ENFJ Fe Ni Ne Fi Te Si Se Ti

    should be the medial; if you turn it around you should get ISTP

    I place the Ni as the second function for the ENFJ and the Ne as her third.

    I think we agree about the Ni.

    I have Ne as the third function.

    The problem is that we do not have many ENFJs here.

    So this is what we do.

    We make her an INTP.

    ENFJ Fe Ni Ne Fi Te Si Se Ti

    it follows ISTP is Ti Se Si Te Fi Ne Ni Fe

    it follows INTP is Ti Ne Ni Te Fi Se Si Fe

    it follows if INTP has as medial Se as her sixth function ENFJ has Ne as the third function. Because 3 + 6 = 9.

    I said stupidly. I said in the literal meaning: The 9 has no place = it is not one of the loci = therefore we can use it. It comes in handy.

  9. #19
    にゃん runvardh's Avatar
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    If it helps you see personality types easier, wildcat, have fun...

  10. #20
    Senior Member wildcat's Avatar
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    I do. Do you as an INFP see yourself as an introverted intuiter?

    Would you say you are naturally inclined towards your Ni function?

    Or maybe it appears only under stress?

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