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  1. #11
    violaine
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mempy View Post
    I don't like the feel negative emotions either; they are inherently painful to feel. But usually, instead of realizing that feeling the emotion means it will then lessen or go away entirely, I try to find some worldview that allows me to perceive the facts in such a way that they are not painful.
    Yup, I think it's the same catalyst (i.e. not wanting to feel a certain way) but different reactions...

    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Maybe that is more what I was trying to say -- I don't mind talking about my feelings even when they're horrible. To me, it's something to describe and understand... My INFx friends tend to just gloss over stuff that is painful, unless they feel very strong or very safe.
    Yeah, there are a lot of reasons I think people gloss over but a huge one for me is I don't know sometimes if the other person can handle it. And I don't want to cause them discomfort so I'd just rather deal with it myself. Of course, that's not always the best way to go about things...

  2. #12
    Mamma said knock you out Mempy's Avatar
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    I did what Jennifer said about turning it over in my head.
    I was looking for an angle. Constantly trying to rework my plan to accommodate the situation.
    When I realized there was nothing to be done, I just moved on. I said; Fuck it. Next time I'll ____ when ____ to preempt ____.
    Hmm. I need some clarification and eleboration, particularly on the bolded. This process you're describing sounds familiar; it sounds like what Jennifer was describing, what Edahn was describing, and what Millerm was describing: the process of analyzing emotions. But I'm interested to understand what you meant by, "I was looking for an angle. Constantly trying to rework my plan to accomodate the situaton." And some explanation of "Next time I'll [blank] when [blank] to preemt [blank]."

    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer
    Maybe that is more what I was trying to say -- I don't mind talking about my feelings even when they're horrible. To me, it's something to describe and understand... My INFx friends tend to just gloss over stuff that is painful, unless they feel very strong or very safe.
    I'm with you on this, Jennifer. I don't tend to avoid talking about my feelings even if they are horribly painful. My reason for this is usually because it makes me more accessible to other people, by my logic, because I am more willing to be vulnerable. I think a willingness to be honest, objective, and appropriately vulnerable is a good thing. Though, I admit to my fear of coming across badly to others. Not only do I admit that fear, but I try to allow myself to really feel it in the moment instead of trying to suppress it to enhance my performace in any given social situation; this usually backfires.

    When I suppress/ignore/run away from a feeling, I become... well, for one thing, I have already begun the process of ignoring reality, which I think starts a domino effect that leads at some point to ignoring other aspects of reality beyond the reality of one's emotions. Because, as I said, I think emotions are often what prompt us to examine reality. Also, in a sense, allowing myself to really feel my feelings in the moment allows me to know who I am. It allows me to express ME. I am not quite sure what allows me to overcome my fear in social situations; it seems that by actually feeling, and not by simply acknowledging my emotions (for the difference between feeling and acknowledging my emotions is profound), I am able to somehow, by this one act, overcome fear. I'll have to think more on how this process happens.

    Furthermore, as others have mentioned (particularly Ts here), if I am feeling negatively especially, I am encouraged to examine why I am feeling negatively, which leads me to examine why I think something is harmful to me, which leads me to examine my perceptions, which leads me to discard inaccurate perceptions, leaving me with only reality (uh, in theory, not necessarily in practice ).
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  3. #13
    heart on fire
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mempy View Post
    In effect, I try to change my inner world (i.e., my level of happiness) by changing my perception of the outer world, which is not always bad, but when it is done at the cost of the facts it cannot be good.

    It is not bad when one seeks to understand why a particular emotion came into being. For instance, just today I noticed that I was annoyed whenever I saw a college girl walking on campus in 50-degree weather in really short shorts. I then began to analyze why I was annoyed with this, and if my annoyance was logically valid or not. [Edit: I think this analytical process ties into what Edahn was saying about how emotions guide the analytical process. This is exactly what I think and I'll explain why, but we might be thinking this for different reasons, Edahn.]
    Just my opinion but that sounds more like shadow Te being critical than a Fi based feeling. It's stupid to wear shorts when it's cold out, Te is making note of it and charging them gals with infractions! These are shadow thoughts not Feeling. jmo.


    I have long sought a worldview that allowed me to be both objective about the world while not having to feel much pain, but I don't think this (necessarily) is possible. Certainly, it is not possible to ignore/avoid one's feelings and still accurately see reality. In this sense, processing our emotions adequately is an essential tool for processing reality accurately.
    At about 33 years old all my old belief structures came violently tumbling down and I had to start over with a very different set of beliefs about the world around me and it isn't comforting or pretty. I long for the old more inner assured views but they apparently aren't coming back. *sigh*

    I mean, yes, there is a lot of happiness to be had in healthy, objective and truthful ways. I am not saying one has to resign oneself to unhappiness in order to see reality accurately. In fact, I think it is only by using our reasoning, and by using our emotions to guide our reasoning, that we can accurately know reality, and I think that to the degree that we accurately know reality, we will be happy. I think our emotions play an important role, extremely important, in the objective acceptance of reality. And a lot of these emotions are painful, but they still cannot be avoided or overlooked out of fear.
    It's the thoughts that are being avoided in my opinion, the feelings are merely avoided because the thoughts that cause them are avoided.


    It is clear to me that Ts do not seem to find emotions as threatening or as frightening as Fs,



    for if they did they would be predisposed to do the same thing which Fs do, which is avoid pain by avoiding facts.
    But what do Feelers do who want to avoid pain? They avoid their thoughts. They also personalize thoughts to fit into their own values.

    Now what do you suppose Thinkers do with their feelings/emotions when Feeling disrupts their need for logic, clarity and fairness? And is it any less unhealthy than what Feelers do? It is any more effective?

  4. #14
    violaine
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mempy View Post

    I'm with you on this, Jennifer. I don't tend to avoid talking about my feelings even if they are horribly painful. My reason for this is usually because it makes me more accessible to other people, by my logic, because I am more willing to be vulnerable. I think a willingness to be honest, objective, and appropriately vulnerable is a good thing. Though, I admit to my fear of coming across badly to others. Not only do I admit that fear, but I try to allow myself to really feel it in the moment instead of trying to suppress it to enhance my performace in any given social situation; this usually backfires.
    Yeah, I wonder sometimes if it's an INFJ thing (or not!)... I've read somewhere (?) that INFJs may forget to show vulnerability. I don't worry about coming across badly to others at all. And I don't pretend that things are ok when they're not. It's just rare that I want to share something on that level with someone else, unless it's perhaps my best friend or my boyfriend who know me very well and will take it in the right way. i.e. not freak out about the depth of my feeling and not end up crying and me having to comfort them... (that's been my experience in the past.) I don't want to share that deepest part of myself with anyone but a boyfriend oftentimes and sometimes I just want to keep it for myself. (I'm quite self-deprecating in terms of my sense of humor so I think that's prob how I show vulnerability with others.)

  5. #15
    Mamma said knock you out Mempy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by heart View Post
    But what do Feelers do who want to avoid pain? They avoid their thoughts. They also personalize thoughts to fit into their own values.
    Why would a person think that simply acknowledging a thought or an aspect of reality would cause harm to them? And I'm not asking why they would think an aspect of reality would cause them harm. I'm asking why they would think ACKNOWLEDGING this aspect of reality would cause them harm, and thus essentially asking why they avoid this thought.

    I'll tell you why. Because they think that feeling their fear - which arises naturally in response to a perceived harmful aspect of reality, in response to a thought or statement about reality - is harmful to them. If a person is afraid of actually feeling their fear, I think they are going to avoid examining a thought, because the fear that this thought rightly and naturally causes them is unbearable to them; they believe it is harmful to them to even feel this fear, so they avoid feeling it by avoiding the thought. But if they did not feel that the process of feeling this fear - or this negative emotion, whatever it may be, whether selfishness, jealousy, sadness, laziness, anger, or anything else - would be harmful in an of itself, they'd have no reason whatsoever to avoid facing the thought.

    When one has a thought about reality, if this thought acknowledges something harmful about reality, one is going to feel negatively; probably some type of fear.

    Thus I think that it is not the thought they are essentially avoiding, though this is necessarily true - they ARE avoiding the thought - but only as a RESULT of avoiding the emotions this thought awakens in them.

    In essence, they are afraid of facing their negative emotions, more than they are afraid of facing the thing actually causing their negative emotions.

    If they did not believe that facing their fear of this thing would be harmful in and of itself, what reason would they have to avoid acknowledging the thought? Acknowledging the thought would no longer pose a threat to them, would it? What threat could it pose besides the one I have just explained?

    This is why I think it is inaccurate to say that Fs are avoiding thoughts; yes, this is true, but WHY are they avoiding them? Because they cannot process/cope/bear the negative emotion they feel in response to this thought. It is the fear of feeling fear that stops them. It is an inability to feel their emotions which causes them to be unable to face reality.

    Phew! I feel horrendously long-winded! But I tried really, really hard on this post, to make it right, and to make it understandable and logically sound. *deep breath* It was frustrating at times, but overall I'm happy with the result. Phew! *wipes sweat from brow* It was like writing a philosophy paper.
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  6. #16
    no clinkz 'til brooklyn Nocapszy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mempy View Post
    Hmm. I need some clarification and eleboration, particularly on the bolded. This process you're describing sounds familiar; it sounds like what Jennifer was describing, what Edahn was describing, and what Millerm was describing: the process of analyzing emotions. But I'm interested to understand what you meant by, "I was looking for an angle. Constantly trying to rework my plan to accomodate the situaton." And some explanation of "Next time I'll [blank] when [blank] to preemt [blank]."
    Well I left them blank for a number of reasons.
    One of them being that it is, after all, personal. Or private or something.
    I'll PM you if you're really curious/think it will help for you to understand.

    To clarify, I mean, I was looking for something to leverage. Trying to fix the problem. I guess I spent less time trying to figure out why it was a problem than what the problem was, and how to fix it.
    I was invested enough for the Feeling to be uncompromising. Once I detected that my situation was equally uncompromising, I guess I just rationalize it as a lesson.
    As if I'm determined not to let it 'beat me': maybe T(i) competitiveness can't allow me to lose, so it puts the F judgement on the bookshelf.
    The mental image I get is more like T swallowing the F, digesting it, and waiting for the particles to become new cells in the T body.
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  7. #17
    heart on fire
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    To Mempy: The Feeler who wants to always feel happy/good will need to avoid or alter the thoughts that provoke the feeling. It is Feeling using Thinking to it's own ends to avoid pain, but it is thought that is not being allowed to have a say not feeling. It's our thinking function that will put a check on feeling becoming egomanical and self-serving. It's thinking that must be suppressed to keep continuous good/happy feelings going because it's thinking that provides the cold, hard truth to spoil the happy mood.

    The thoughts then will go underground and come back as shadow T. Criticalness of self and others, paranoia about the intentions and strategies of others.

    This is why I think it is inaccurate to say that Fs are avoiding thoughts; yes, this is true, but WHY are they avoiding them? Because they cannot process/cope/bear the negative emotion they feel in response to this thought. It is the fear of feeling fear that stops them. It is an inability to feel their emotions which causes them to be unable to face reality.
    Of course they are avoiding the thoughts because they do not *wish* to feel negative feelings (I don't believe it is because they cannot feel them, it is because they don't wish to feel them and Feeling as function filters out what perception and thought bring to it in order to allow this to happen), but the fact remains that thought is being avoided, no matter the motivation. They've simply trained themselves to avoid the thoughts and perceptions that bring the bad emotions because they desire to feel good all the time.

    If a person truly cannot tolerate/handle negative feelings at all, it is probably something beyond type and needs professional help to overcome. A true neurosis.

  8. #18
    Mamma said knock you out Mempy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by heart
    The Feeler who wants to always feel happy/good will need to avoid or alter the thoughts that provoke the feeling. It is Feeling using Thinking to it's own ends to avoid pain, but it is thought that is not being allowed to have a say not feeling.
    I think it's both. As you said, they are avoiding a feeling by altering their thought, which is what I was saying when I said that they are avoiding a feeling by avoiding/ignoring a thought. It starts with not wanting the feeling, not with not wanting the thought. One doesn't want the thought because one doesn't want the feeling, and not the reverse, which says that one doesn't want the feeling because one doesn't want the thought.

    Wait a second. Maybe we're both right somehow. I'm all confused now. And I have to give up for now.

    And I'll leave it at that for now, I think. I've spent far too much time in this thread! I feel strange that I have done so. Hmm. Time for a break!
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  9. #19
    Magical Firelie's Avatar
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    I wouldn't necessarily call avoiding feelings also being ignorant about facts, unless your facts are so wrapped up in feelings that you cannot unravel the two. It's kinda hard to answer that question without a specific instance to go by...I usually take what I need and shove the feelings into the back of my head until I'm ready to give them attention.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mempy View Post
    What do you think is meant when a person says, "Ts have trouble processing their emotions"? Do you think it means they have trouble acknowledging them, feeling them, or being aware of them at any level of consciousness?
    Personally, I'm usually unaware of the feeling until after it's passed and I've had time to process the situation and realize "Hey, that made me feel bad" (or whatever).

  10. #20

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    I'm a T and automatically depersonalize.

    I rarely feel emotions. I simply become aware that I am having them (and sometimes not even that).

    It's not that I believe emotions are bad or unecessary. In fact, I believe emotions to be the only thing that motivates human beings.

    Even things like curiosity (wanting to know), and empericism (wanting to test theories), have at base some emotions that motivate the activity.

    I am not sure why I depersonalize. I have tried hard at times to personalize, and actually feel my feelings. But it is hard, because when I focus on my emotions, they get depersonalized. But it seems like the only other option I have is to let them control me subconsciously. This is usually detrimental.

    Often, the only feelings I actually feel are the incredibly intense ones. Unfortunately, these have also tended to be unpleasant.

    Accept the past. Live for the present. Look forward to the future.
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