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Let's rethink J/P

Ghost of the dead horse

filling some space
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I can mostly agree to that list, INTJmom. I'd still have to think about how to describe the inner thought processes and world view of both groups.

Most I disagree with what kind of environment I'd need; I don't think I have a preference for that in the terms expressed in those descriptions.
 

edcoaching

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Judgers prefer a structured, ordered, and fairly predictable environment, where they can make decisions and have things settled.

Judgers often:
* Are serious & conventional
* See the need for most rules
* Find comfort in schedules

As much as I like the Tiegers, I think these particular phrases apply far more to SJs than to NJs. These kinds of things create the stereotypes about J and P. While Judging is definitely about finding closure (coming to judgments) and Perceiving is definitely about staying open (allowing more perceptions), few NJs really want structure, order, rules and schedules. Ugh!!!

What is generally true, though, is that mature Judging types have a keen sense of how long things will take--if people do it their way. So what might seem like a reasonable deadline to a J (who has already decided how many options to explore, etc., and internally quantified the length of time the project SHOULD take) might seem constraining to a P who still thinks there are other things that should be explored.

Yes there are J's who think everyone should sell their souls to meet an unrealistic deadline, but there are also P's who think that saying "Make it so" will get things done in unrealistic time frames. Both are forms of immaturity/control issues/codependency/things far removed from normal differences in J/P behavior...
 

FDG

pathwise dependent
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I don't know about the debate, but I'll highlight what of the list I find to be truthful for myself:

Judgers often:
* Make most decisions pretty easily
* Pay attention to time & are prompt
* Prefer to finish projects
* Find comfort in schedules

Absolutely NOT:

* See the need for most rules
The only rules I see the need for are physical laws. You can't contradict them. Human rules are instead a completely arbitrary construct.
* Are serious & conventional
I don't see how this follows from being J; or, rather, I see how this may follow from "seeing the need for most rules", but not from the other parts of the description.

As far as process/result goes: socionics provides a tool called "Renin Dichotomies" (a mathematical extension of the usual 4 dichotomies), and among them there's a process-result one: STJ NFJ SFP NTP are the process types, NTJ SFJ STP NFP are the result types.
 

mlittrell

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/thread lol just end it

Js search for closure. it doesn't mean that they cant take their good old time to find that closure but they need to have it eventually. Ps dont search for closure, in fact, they would rather their not be closure just like Js would be uncomfortable with leaving things open.
 

Eric B

ⒺⓉⒷ
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OK, this is Berren's idea. Curiously she has 3 J's and 1 P, or 3 P's and 1 J per interaction style. I'm guessing the additional material will require more reading time than I have available at the moment.
The Interaction Styles are basically the old traditional "social" version of the temperaments, based on I/E and people-task orientation (the latter which Berens calls "Informing" and "Directing"). D/Inf does not map directly to the MBTI dichotomies, but it can be divided according to S and N. For S types, T/F indicate D/Inf, and for N types, it is J/P. This is "mirrored" in the Keirseyan temperaments by another pair of facets Berens brought out: Structure (J for S's; T for N's) and Motive (P for S's; F for N's). So in either case; J will tend to be more serious (along with T), and P (along with F) will tend to be less so.
Blend them all together, you get the groups being mentioned in a couple concurrent threads: TJ's tending to be the most serious; FP's the least so, and TP's and FJ's inbetween.
I don't see being hard-headed the hallmark of J.
In my experience; J's will often accuse P's of being hard headed, and even "rigid", because they refuse to do things they way they think they should be done, or to even bend on it. But it's usually a result of the P not wanting to be forced into the J's "scheduling" ways. Quite ironic, isn't it!
 

Ghost of the dead horse

filling some space
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Ahh, J/P isn't one function.. it doesn't tell anything about one function, but a set of functions. Depends on I/E, too.

I'm claiming J/P as the most useless categorization if used alone, tho when combined with something else, it describes something more specific.

/thread lol just end it
Just stop readin', foo, and keep it at that..

You don't see anyone else announcing shit like that, either.

p.s. I think I'm gonna take a dump now.

p.p.s. and I'll stop reading, too.

p.p.p.s. I came back.

p.p.p.p.s. I resumed reading.

;)
 

Jack Flak

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type
I'm claiming J/P as the most useless categorization if used alone, tho when combined with something else, it describes something more specific.
No, pfffft. Like, how could...What I'm trying to say here....If I turned on the TV....I just...I just....Look, you and me, we're....It's hard to explain...For example, fifty percent of the population of this country is just....
 

yenom

Alexander the Terrible
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Js -like riules, have strong work ethic, scheduled, hates suprises, work before play, hates entropy and disorder, likes hierarchy,

P's-hates riules, likes entropy, takes uncalculated risks, procrastinator, antihierarchy, often late for work, will only work for things that dserve their best interests

J high conscious
P's low conscious
 

mlittrell

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Thanks for throwing more garbage into this wreck of a thread.

Do you shit on the floors at your home, too?
yes i smear myself with my feces and roll around in it and think of how great these threads are

chill
 

INTJMom

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J vs P is better decided by observing their extraversion. Watch what they do for others. It’s not really extraversion as in talkativeness, but just as in it is in the realm of the exterior world.

Hence, a J may be messy, but their reports for work would be better structured and more precise.

Also, Js when expressing tend to give judgments where as Ps tend to express more the current situation with both certainties and doubts included. A J is more likely to say “this is the way it is” where as a P would say “this is what I think is happening”.
 

Nocapszy

no clinkz 'til brooklyn
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Thanks for throwing more garbage into this wreck of a thread.
He's trying cleaning up your shit, from the bigger, forum floor, ape.

This is a joke of a thread.
It should be ended.
 

mlittrell

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He's trying cleaning up your shit, from the bigger, forum floor, ape.

This is a joke of a thread.
It should be ended.
yes i do want the thread to end because J and P are quite easily the simplest part of MBTI to understand (moreso then I vs E imo) but no need to throw insults

thanks for the support though :)
 

Nocapszy

no clinkz 'til brooklyn
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It's not an insult. He chose the avatar. Sort of evolution-topical since monkeys are notorious for their defecating habits/abilities (depending on perspective).

In any case, you're right. J and P is the easiest. But everyone wants J/P to be specifically descriptive of observable behavior, but it's not.
They deserve insults, but if I get another infraction, I'm banned, so just saying they deserve insults will have to suffice.
 

mlittrell

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In any case, you're right. J and P is the easiest. But everyone wants J/P to be specifically descriptive of observable behavior, but it's not.
sounds good to me :) really any observable behavior shouldn't be defined by MBTI.
They deserve insults, but if I get another infraction, I'm banned, so just saying they deserve insults will have to suffice.
because insults really help.

and i wasn't talking about your "insult" as far as ape. i meant the whole post in general could be taken as insulting.
 

Nocapszy

no clinkz 'til brooklyn
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sounds good to me :) really any observable behavior shouldn't be defined by MBTI.
No no! It can and should be. It's just that it doesn't go the other way.
Observable behavior doesn't define MBTI. MBTI defines observable behavior.

because insults really help.
They do me.

and i wasn't talking about your "insult" as far as ape. i meant the whole post in general could be taken as insulting.
Again, more for me than for him.

What can I say? I'm selfish.
 

mlittrell

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No no! It can and should be. It's just that it doesn't go the other way.
Observable behavior doesn't define MBTI. MBTI defines observable behavior.
ya i get what your saying. now i dont think MBTI should have anything/everything to do with behavior and vice versa. now behavior can be reflected in MBTI and once again vice versa but defined... ehh. maybe though.

definable behavior can break the boundaries of MBTI and thus cant be defined by MBTI i guesss is my point.

and hey whatever floats your boat with the insults lol just sticking up for the guy. though it might not be obvious, it might discourage him from posting a possibly good idea that you and i would never think of.
 

Ghost of the dead horse

filling some space
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and hey whatever floats your boat with the insults lol just sticking up for the guy. though it might not be obvious, it might discourage him from posting a possibly good idea that you and i would never think of.
Unlikely in the view of a guy who posts "ZOMG you're wrong" as a knee-jerk reflex.

Commendable attempt at peace, nevertheless.

I'm in for civil discussion as usual.
 
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