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  1. #31
    ish red no longer *sad* nightning's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mlittrell View Post
    keirseys temperaments are as good as it gets though so anything else is...ehh. also, its pointless to use grouping to explain functions because like i said before, functions are pointless as individual entities. If you group ENP then you leave out the Fi or Ti, which is crucial. the functions work as a team and are close to pointless on their own. what i was saying the groupings are useful for is when you specifically need them but taking them seriously is kinda pointless. they are good when needed and can be used fluidly but concretely...no.
    Are you saying functions are useless to personality? That's like saying happiness is useless in examining the overall well-being of the person. I disagree. You must first understand the fundamental building blocks before you look at how they interact. Otherwise you're just making it harder on yourself when you don't have to.

    really MBTI is dead as far as developing anything new. imo.
    Development of MBTI as a whole, yes. Furthering our understanding of the implications on the model, no.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by nightning View Post
    Are you saying functions are useless to personality? That's like saying happiness is useless in examining the overall well-being of the person.
    No, it's like saying you don't need to know where the sand came from to make the bricks with which a house was built, when you're deciding whether to buy it or not.

  3. #33
    IRL is not real Cimarron's Avatar
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    Cool. INTJMom linked to a page where they had already used these groupings. What did they think it was useful for? Here:
    Quote Originally Posted by website
    I have divided the 16 different temperament Myers-Briggs 4 letter types into four groupings based upon their similarity in appearance to one observing them from the outside. I believe this is the most useful schema in determining a person's type by observation alone.
    Notice that the bolded sounds a lot like what I said in previous posts:
    Quote Originally Posted by myself
    Yeah, I noticed that too. That's caused by the nature of introverts, hiding their main interpersonal traits. Having these groups based on judging vs. perceiving functions points out what a person's strongest "Xe" is, and that is the one that interacts more with other people than within yourself, if I have a vague understanding. But then what are the merits of that? I guess that's a question to ponder.
    When I called them "interpersonal" relations, that's basically what I meant.
    Last edited by Cimarron; 10-16-2008 at 06:12 PM. Reason: 2nd quote
    You can't spell "justice" without ISTJ.

  4. #34

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cimarron View Post
    When I called them "interpersonal" relations, that's basically what I meant.
    Ah. Yes. I see what you were trying to do now. Basically, you wanted to group by the "highest" function used to deal with the external world.

    So for dealing with external world:
    FJ<=>Fe
    TJ<=>Te
    SP<=>Se
    NP<=>Ne

    For some reason, I thought you were just trying to modify Keirsey's Temperaments.

    Interestingly, one could get a "dual" grouping for the "highest" function dealing with the internal world.
    SJ<=>Si
    NJ<=>Ni
    FP<=>Fi
    TP<=>Ti

    Accept the past. Live for the present. Look forward to the future.
    Robot Fusion
    "As our island of knowledge grows, so does the shore of our ignorance." John Wheeler
    "[A] scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy." Richard Feynman
    "[P]etabytes of [] data is not the same thing as understanding emergent mechanisms and structures." Jim Crutchfield

  5. #35
    IRL is not real Cimarron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ygolo View Post
    Ah. Yes. I see what you were trying to do now. Basically, you wanted to group by the "highest" function used to deal with the external world.

    So for dealing with external world:
    FJ<=>Fe
    TJ<=>Te
    SP<=>Se
    NP<=>Ne

    For some reason, I thought you were just trying to modify Keirsey's Temperaments.
    No, I found the justification afterwards. But thanks for giving me credit. Though at one point, I almost decided to spell out the list you posted above. I decided against it because I thought it would be deceiving as to my original intentions...and indeed, it seems it would have been.

    I set out originally to find a grouping system based on something more consistent than what Keirsey had.
    You can't spell "justice" without ISTJ.

  6. #36
    ish red no longer *sad* nightning's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flak View Post
    No, it's like saying you don't need to know where the sand came from to make the bricks with which a house was built, when you're deciding whether to buy it or not.
    But theories aren't tangible like bricks and houses. A theory that isn't understood is for all practicality useless. That's not the same for houses. You can live in a house without understanding how its built, but can you use theories if you don't know what it represents? A bit far fetched in my opinions.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by nightning View Post
    But theories aren't tangible like bricks and houses. A theory that isn't understood is for all practicality useless. That's not the same for houses. You can live in a house without understanding how its built, but can you use theories if you don't know what it represents? A bit far fetched in my opinions.
    You have to trust that the house is built to spec.

  8. #38
    Member Oleander's Avatar
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    We use theories without full comprehension all the time. If we did not, we'd need to work everything out from first principles. All that matters is that we know that if necessary there is a rational chain that leads back the theory can be explained if we need it to be. It's about 80 years since anybody that drove a car needed to be a mechanic and 30 since everybody that used a computer needed to be their own programmer.

  9. #39
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nightning View Post
    Hmmmm right. Bugger with 4 then... let's use 8.

    INJ
    ISJ
    ENP
    ESP

    ITP
    IFP
    ETJ
    EFJ
    I like these ones. Jung's original types.

  10. #40
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    Jung was a hack.

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