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  1. #31
    veteran attention whore Jeffster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sarah View Post
    Besides, I've actually learned things just to know them, unlike you. If something strikes me as being entertaining, I learn it. Maybe it'll come in useful someday, but that's not the point -- the point is, for some weird reason it pleases me to know about it.
    .
    I just talked about that, though. Entertainment is a use, whether for you or someone else. So, it's not really "just to know them" because you are getting an immediate use out of it!
    Jeffster Illustrates the Artisan Temperament <---- click here

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  2. #32
    soft and silky sarah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffster View Post
    Nah. There were definitely places in the book (and not just the Artisan parts) where I found myself wishing he's put "many" or "often" instead of just making blanket statements. But when I thought about more, I came to the conclusion that he was just trying to be confident in his presentation, and the entire concept of personality types or temperaments doesn't hold at all unless you can say "well, that's not entirely true for me (or someone I know) but I can see the overall pattern." Believe me, that's tough for me to do too. When I first read Keirsey's description of "Dionysians" in the original "Please Understand Me", I dismissed completely as being totally not me, because I focused on what I considered negative about it, and thought of it as only presenting the type of person I went to high school with who cared about nothing but getting drunk all the time, and I hated those people. Later on, though, I was able to admit that a whole lot of it fit me, because I had all those impulses he was talking about, I just dealt with them in a different way.

    I think he's got to be simplistic sometimes when he's describing millions of people at the same time. I mean, heck., watch the political party conventions. There's not even four groups then, there's two. And they'll make blanket statements like "Democrats believe in.." and "Republicans believe in..." and obviously there's people watching who are members of that party who may completely disagree on that issue, but they accept it because of their overall identification. I think that's what I've done with the Artisan temperament, and you'll notice that I focus a lot more on how certain things manifest themselves through me, and less time nitpicking if a certain line doesn't really strike me as accurate, because in anything written to describe millions (or perhaps billions) of people, is going to have some elements that don't apply to everybody.

    Now, if I get done with this and find you've deleted your post again, you're going to owe me a coke.

    Oh... where were you five years ago when I was trying to figure all this out by myself, with no other SPs available to give me feedback?

    Okay, yeah, I get what you're saying. I also get that Keirsey may have thought he had to exaggerate to make a point, but I wish he'd been more careful about how some of his statements might sound to people who are confused over the difference between a preference for Feeling and the Idealist tempearment.

    This particular phrase is near the top of my Most Disliked Keirsey Phrases list, actually, so I admit that it tends to set me off.. (my top most hated line is the one in PUMII that says that SJs and SPs are "incapable" of thinking about abstract topics for more than a few minutes at a time. Well, what sort of abstraction is he talking about? Quantum physics? String theory? Boring, unreadable essays written by Emmanuel Kant? Okay, then he has a point. But type theory is also an abstract topic, and there are a number of SJs and SPs who find it useful.)


    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffster View Post
    I just talked about that, though. Entertainment is a use, whether for you or someone else. So, it's not really "just to know them" because you are getting an immediate use out of it!
    Haahaaaaa! Good point -- entertainment IS HIGHLY useful! Otherwise I'd be sad and bored. Thanks for clarifying, Jeffster.

    Sarah
    ISFP

  3. #33
    veteran attention whore Jeffster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sarah View Post
    Oh... where were you five years ago when I was trying to figure all this out by myself, with no other SPs available to give me feedback?
    Well, let's see..five years ago, personality type stuff was not anywhere near the front of my mind. My son was 4 and a month into his very first year of school (Head Start) and most of any time I spent on internet forums was on the ones for Texas Tech football and Houston Rockets basketball. Oh, and Radio & Records' forums as well. I had taken an online test somewhere around 02 I think, and identified as ISFP, and I actually printed the thing out and gave it to my co-workers (who botched it up completely because they all took it together and discussed the answers as they were doing it and all that stuff that makes results not valid anyway.) But it was probably out of my head a few days later, and the idea of spending time discussing it or joining a forum devoted to it would have sounded pretty unappealing to me I'm sure.

    Okay, yeah, I get what you're saying. I also get that Keirsey may have thought he had to exaggerate to make a point, but I wish he'd been more careful about how some of his statements might sound to people who are confused over the difference between a preference for Feeling and the Idealist tempearment.

    This particular phrase is near the top of my Most Disliked Keirsey Phrases list, actually, so I admit that it tends to set me off.. (my top most hated line is the one in PUMII that says that SJs and SPs are "incapable" of thinking about abstract topics for more than a few minutes at a time. Well, what sort of abstraction is he talking about? Quantum physics? String theory? Boring, unreadable essays written by Emmanuel Kant? Okay, then he has a point. But type theory is also an abstract topic, and there are a number of SJs and SPs who find it useful.)
    You make very good points, and do think Keirsey makes a mistake in dismissing the psychological function aspect of it completely, this glossing over some of the information that could help confused people figure out why they can identify strongly with certain elements of the descriptions of two different temperaments (or even more.)

    Luckily, I didn't stop at just one person's take, and I've gathered quite a bit of information, and hope to do whatever I can, whenever I can, to clear up confusion by discussing the reality of the "gray areas" and the functional stuff that explains why people often mix up types because they aren't as clear-cut as some people present.

    (that paragraph made so much more sense in my head and I got total brain block trying to actually type it out)


    Haahaaaaa! Good point -- entertainment IS HIGHLY useful! Otherwise I'd be sad and bored. Thanks for clarifying, Jeffster.
    Oh yeah, entertainment good. Boredom bad. See, SPs can be eloquent with words.
    Jeffster Illustrates the Artisan Temperament <---- click here

    "I like the sigs with quotes in them from other forum members." -- Oberon

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  4. #34
    soft and silky sarah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffster View Post
    Luckily, I didn't stop at just one person's take, and I've gathered quite a bit of information, and hope to do whatever I can, whenever I can, to clear up confusion by discussing the reality of the "gray areas" and the functional stuff that explains why people often mix up types because they aren't as clear-cut as some people present.

    (that paragraph made so much more sense in my head and I got total brain block trying to actually type it out)
    Hey, no problem, I got what you were saying. I did the same thing, and fortunately people who knew what they were talking about steered me in the right direction. Otherwise I'd have spent the rest of my life being an IXFP.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffster View Post
    Oh yeah, entertainment good. Boredom bad. See, SPs can be eloquent with words.
    Sometimes as eloquent as their actions, even! As the Cat in the Hat (who was obviously an SP) liked to put it: "These things are fun and fun is good."



    Sarah
    ISFP

  5. #35
    Rats off to ya! Mort Belfry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffster View Post
    "Much of everyday Artisan speech is lively, filled with vivid, unorthodox terms, though not much abstract. SPs like to use colorful phrases and current slang in their speech, and they pick up hip phrases quickly.... When they reach for images, they tend to use quick, sensory adjectives or they say what things are like, using rather striking similes."















    There are obviously many more examples of this I could post, but I feel like that ought to be plenty to illustrate the main stuff. You can see definite examples of the primary characteristics Keirsey points out in this section within those stories I told, several of which I posted before I had even read PUMII, so the act of telling those was not any attempt to demonstrate these things at the time. It was simply the natural way in which I relate things when it comes to words.
    Jeffster I had no idea you were so well read, so many quotations.

    Sure, they're all quotes of yourself, but then aptness of verse with egoism is better than eclecticism with confusion.
    Why do we always come here?

    I guess we'll never know.

    It's like a kind of torture,
    To have to watch this show.

  6. #36
    soft and silky sarah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mort Belfry View Post
    Jeffster I had no idea you were so well read, so many quotations.

    Sure, they're all quotes of yourself, but then aptness of verse with egoism is better than eclecticism with confusion.
    Oh ppfffft! This thread is great. Keep it up, Jeffster. You've got a good thing going.

    Sarah
    ISFP
    Last edited by sarah; 10-22-2008 at 11:36 AM.

  7. #37
    veteran attention whore Jeffster's Avatar
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    LOL BUMP

    err..I mean...



    Tactical Intellect



    "What Artisans do most and best is work on their immediate environs in a tactical way. Tactics is the art of making moves to better one's position in the here and now, whether these moves are are dabbing oils on canvas, flying in rough weather, dishing off the basketball on a fast-break, or skirmishing on the battlefield. Contrast this to Strategy, which is the art of making moves to better one's position in the future.

    SP battle leaders are no different from SP painters, pilots, or point guards: they are always scanning for opportunities, always looking for the best angle of approach, and so are able to come up with that particular action which at the moment gives them the greatest advantage, that brings success. Robert E. Lee, George Patton, and Erwin Rommel were all brilliant SP tactical leaders, able to notice the smallest details in their immediate surroundings, the slightest changes in foreground and background, which allowed them to grasp the moment and exploit fully whatever resources were at hand.

    But whether on the battlefield or the stage, in the corporate suite or the political arena, SPs are busy making maneuvers with equipment of all sorts, from paint brushes to basketballs, jet planes to tanks-even singers, dancers, and actors call their voice or their body to be their "instrument", and comedians describe their skill with an audience as "working the room". Artisans can handle equipment in an expediting or an improvising way-or both-but they are interested first, last, and always in working with equipment."



    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffster View Post
    We'll take your pitchfork before you even know we're there because you're too busy dreaming about what you're gonna do with it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffster View Post
    Some of y'all definitely got an overthinking problem. Life's too short to worry if someone is showing you their "true self" online. I mean, if you actually plan to have a real life relationship with someone, that's one thing. But if all you do is talk to a person online, then react to the self they show you, and get on with your life!

    This has been "Practical Advice from the Jeffster." Join us next time for when I explain the proper way to get ants out of a blender.

    Thread title - "Who sucks?":

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffster View Post
    I just back to town and that's a lot of pages to read through. Has anybody said "Your mom" yet?
    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffster View Post
    You just let me know whose head I need to bust, Sunnie.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffster View Post
    That's my favorite line in that whole book. I've never read a better description of that. The next action is a free variable. That is what I live for right there.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffster View Post
    Just don't click on it.

    Problem solved.

    (the preceding brought to you by JTS (Jeffster's Tactical Solutions), Corp. All rights reserved.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffster View Post
    Meanwhile, here I am on a Thursday morning with no clean socks for work. So, do I go foot commando or do I put on dirty socks after my shower? These are the kind of dilemmas an SP faces in life.
    Speaking of mornings, that's when the tactics begin at my place. More often than not, I wake up late and have immediate decisions to make about how much time I have to get ready for work and get my son to school, and have to decide in what order do I do these tasks to try to make both of us as on time as possible. Some days I realize I can still get Morgan to school in time for breakfast, so I focus entirely on crowbarring him out of bed and staying on him, badgering him hard until he's dressed and ready, I just throw on some pants and my shoes and whatever shirt I slept in, and then I drive him to school and drop him off before coming back home to jump in the shower and get myself ready. Sometimes I end up late anyway, but at least one of us was on time. Other days I realize I'm not going to get him there in time for breakfast so I let him take a little more time to get going in his unhurrying style and focus on getting myself ready so I get him breakfast on the go, get him there just a couple minutes late and get myself to work on time because I'm ready to go straight from the school to my office.

    Once I get to the office, I have to scan my surroundings, check what stacks of paperwork I've been given, where and what I left off on the previous day and what I need to start doing before the phone calls start coming in. The phone calls themselves are another opportunity for tactics, as I've got to catch on to the scammers, decide whether a call for the owners or GMs is legit or just sales call, take sales numbers from the managers, get the managers who need to perform tasks on their store computers to take care of those, pay attention to whether the tasks I'm having my computer take care of are working properly, all the while not losing track of the work I started doing before the phone rang and be able to pick up where I left off or decide that work needs to be set aside to deal with a different problem or task that has arisen and needs a solution now.

    When I still worked in the actual Subway restaurants as a manager, I did have a morning routine, but I still had to react to what was presented to me when I got there in the morning. Did the closer clean the store thoroughly? Did they pan the right amount of bread and prep the right meats/veggies for the morning? Did they handle the cash properly or leave me with improper safe deposits and overrings? Then I had to prioritize and decide quickly what order to do the needed tasks to give us the best chance of getting open on time with all products available for sale and the restaurant clean and ready for customers.


    More to come...
    Jeffster Illustrates the Artisan Temperament <---- click here

    "I like the sigs with quotes in them from other forum members." -- Oberon

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  8. #38
    veteran attention whore Jeffster's Avatar
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    Tactical Operators (STP)

    "Operators work on the expediting side of tactical intelligence. They are the tough-minded Artisans, those SPs who are smart at working with people and machinery in order to advance their interests, and who are directive or quick to tell others what to do."

    Shockingly, I'll take a break from quoting myself and get a little help from my friends on this one, since I'm not a T, I'll need to do a little bit of illustrating using my "Operator" brothers and sisters here on the forum....

    Quote Originally Posted by millerm277 View Post
    Hmm, I don't know if I would really enjoy working in a factory, but for the general idea of mechanical things being fascinating, I definitely do.

    A job I've always desired to be (not for life, but for some period of time) in is working in snowmaking for a ski area. Outdoors, large machines, with a semi-high danger level....heaven.
    Quote Originally Posted by 6sticks View Post
    Back in high school I would only do my homework in class. I think the teachers just assumed I was taking notes. If I didn't finish, I'd just do it during lunch or right before it was due. If it still wasn't done, I didn't really care. I don't think I ever even studied once. Didn't matter, cause I went to college a year earlier anyway.

    I remember once my parents threatened to take away my computer because I had low grades and was just playing video games. I said that was fine, but if they did that I wouldn't do any school work until I failed the class. I wasn't bluffing. They backed down. I passed the class.

    And they say we have bad people skills.
    Quote Originally Posted by SahlainAnteth View Post
    Yeah, I've always had a fascination with weapons too. which led to me choreographing theatrical stage combat and being secretary in a fencing club.
    Quote Originally Posted by lauranna View Post
    Sports wise i am a risk-taker, thrill seeker. I play rugby which is a tough sport and not typically feminine. I adore the big hits and the adrenaline and the excitement. I adore the mud and the hurts and the bruises. Running for runnings sake bores me, the gym bores me, and yet in a match i never feel tired. I could play forever.
    I naturally have good hand/eye co-ordination and good balance and a very good sense of awareness of the game and the players around me. I currently play for my club, county and region and want to play for my country. Although i never plan that far ahead. i just want to improve and play higher so i take each match as it comes.
    During a match i am constantly thinking about the teams next move and my next move almost like high speed chess. While a lot of rugby players brains literally dont engage during the 80 minutes on the pitch, mine is always working. At the same time i am utterly fearless. I will run into anything and anyone without thought for consequence.

    I absolutely love contact sport.
    I like the bruises. the pain. it makes me feel something. Feel so alive.
    I used to jump horses at a high level- a sport where fearlessness is a huge attribute.
    I like to ski. Fast. off piste. over jumps. I have a lot of confidence in my ability to read the snow.
    I also get injured rarely. i mean i have had broken bones and strains but as for the amount of what people deem risky activities that i do, i have a low injury rate. I like to think the risks i take are calculated and I have a good affinity with the physical world which helps minimise the risks.

    Basically i will do any sport i think i will get a rush out of and train and play tirelessly. The rest of the time i am often seen as lazy. i often prefer to drive rather than walk and take a lift rather than stairs. I am always late and i value economy of effort and much prefer the most direct route from A to B. I cannot abide going for a walk just for the sake of it. Yet at the same time i greatly appreciate the aesthetic beauty of the physical world.

    Temperament wise i am utterly calm and unemotional at all times. People cannot comprehend my complete emotional detachment. i am very good in a crisis and even on a night out drinking, if something goes wrong i will be the one who sobers up immediately and solves the problem.
    When i go out i am often seen as extroverted in personality. I am outgoing, witty and a lot of fun. (So much so that a 'friend' told me i had my Myers briggs wrong and i was definitely an E)
    Sometimes i am bubbly and childlike and love games. Sometimes i am sarcastic and dry in my humour. I often see interaction with other people as a game. i like to entertain myself by playing games with others.
    When i am not in a social setting i need my alone time. My absolute alone time to think. I can spend days alone when i will read or write or just think. (although i realise a lot of the ISTP profiles state that reading is not a typical ISTP pastime- i see it as part of my introverted personality and part of my analysis of the world. ) I read crime and gritty thrillers- anything with some substance. Nothing depresses me more than a girly chick book.

    I am often quiet and observe others particularly in a work environment. i see a lot and take it all in and remember it and i think others often think i am oblivious.

    Routine work bores me utterly and i have struggled a lot with a lot of different jobs. I am soon starting in the police force which i hope will satisfy my need for action.

    I am terribly messy and my bedroom is a tip- although i do know where everything is. i do make an effort to keep shared areas tidy. i have no wish to annoy my housemates. I can cope easily with other people's mess. i have no issues with people leaving their stuff everywhere.

    I have a lot of friends although i do not think of them as friends as such. more like people i do things with. They dont know me really at all. They know the public me. I am a great listener and i will listen to friends for hours to gain information. I get on well with pretty much everyone i meet and i completely believe in equality and fairness for everyone. If someone pisses me off enough though i will cut them entirely from my life.
    I sometimes get very angry about something- particularly if i am stressed, normally from being around too many stupid people. My anger passes as quickly as it has come. i sometimes say things in temper that people misinterpret or take too seriously. i am often unaware of the scars that my white hot rage has left behind.
    I have a couple of close friends who i share personal things with to a degree. but i never really discuss feelings. I never really have feelings to the extent that i feel they require discussion. I tend to find logic can overcome emotion in most situations.
    Jeffster Illustrates the Artisan Temperament <---- click here

    "I like the sigs with quotes in them from other forum members." -- Oberon

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  9. #39
    veteran attention whore Jeffster's Avatar
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    Tactical Entertainers (SFP)

    "Drawn to the improvising side of tactical intelligence, Entertainers are the friendly, fond-hearted Artisans, those SPs who want to amuse or to charm others, and whose first impulse is to inform those around them by making or showing them something beautiful or exciting."

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffster View Post
    I'm all about how I make people feel. I don't want bad things to happen. I want exciting GOOD things to happen. I don't want to make people feel nervous and edgy, I want them to feel happy and thrilled, I want to cheer them up, make them laugh, in some cases I want them to make out with me. You know, good excitement. I mean, sure, every once in a while, it's kinda fun to piss someone off, but that's not my main purpose that's for sure.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffster View Post
    Making an impact on someone. Sharing something beautiful or exciting with someone. Receiving gifts or just things like phone calls or internet messages.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffster View Post
    I'm in the business of making wishes come true.
    "Entertainers are able to use effortlessly whatever materials they find to wing it, to play it by ear, to fly by the seat of their pants---to make things up as they go along---far more comfortable sharing their creations with others than directing their actions. Like Operators, Entertainers have the the tactical ability to notice every sensual detail of their surroundings and to react spontaneously, adapting something on the spot, on the spur of the moment. They can hit upon ways of utilizing what's at hand to suit their current artistic intention, and they can do this without pre-planning. Entertainers use creatively whatever bits and scraps of material are actually present and immediately available."

    I did this as a kid in school with creative writing, there were several times we had an assignment to write a brief story or paragraph using vocabulary words, and I would sometimes write multiple pages, taking the words and just flowing, belting out a kickass scene out of nowhere like taking geometry words and turning it into a sci-fi tv show episode with character names like Captain Scalene and writing about his adventures in the Pythagorean Quadrant. I wrote one in 4th grade where I went into a Hemingway-like nostalgia description of living on a farm and recalling rich sunsets and raccoons stealing corn, and filled with all sorts of overly descriptive BS that you find in those long overrated novels where they take like 5 pages describing a tree or something, but when I get on a roll I can spew that stuff onto a page too, it's like a geyser just shooting out word awesomeness and anyone reading it is getting sprayed like a mofo.

    When I started writing poetry in high school, I didn't brainstorm or set up outlines or rhyme schemes or even think about a theme before I started writing, I just started writing, just flowing, emptying my brain onto the paper, sometimes finding a scheme or a theme or a motive as I went, but other times just flowing with random words and phrases, like a painter just throwing paint at a canvass, seeing what beauty or what ugliness or what form it would take.

    In drama class and theater productions I was involved in, I always loved improv the best, because you didn't have to stick to a script, you could just use the setting or a prop or whatever you were given to just create and zing and badabing and boom, and the juices are flowing and you're just going.

    When I first had a computer with net access I discovered great stuff like online role playing, irc chatting, and foruming, and at first I didn't do those things as myself ever, I created a multitude of characters and put them into whatever environment I could to ad lib and react spontaneously to the other people and the settings, digging for whatever creative forces I had within to play chatting and acting like it was some sort of keyboard tennis, taking the shots and sending them back with whatever type of return the situation called for. Like real tennis, there were plenty of double faults and netted volleys, but I didn't fold, I kept going right back to the line and trying more shots from different angles.

    I'm at my best when I'm just riffing, like a guitarist on stage improvising freestyle, but I do it with dialogue and humor, responding to those "bits and scraps of material" that are in the form of what others say to me, whether over the internet, over the phone, from some other media, or in person, caught up in the artistic action of chatting and improvising, entertaining myself and others, feeding off that attention and that energy, the adrenaline, the flow of the conversation or the circumstances, it's a huge RUSH, living in that moment, using both instinctive and developed tactical intelligence to respond immediately in the moment with the best entertainment I can produce with the material and the opportunity I am given by the people and the environment that I find myself in.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffster View Post
    Or you could kill them all, stuff them in sacks and throw them into the sea. Then, hey, free house.

    ---

    Join us next time for another exciting adventure!
    Jeffster Illustrates the Artisan Temperament <---- click here

    "I like the sigs with quotes in them from other forum members." -- Oberon

    The SP Spazz Youtube Channel

  10. #40
    soft and silky sarah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffster View Post
    Tactical Entertainers (SFP)

    [b]"Drawn to the improvising side of tactical intelligence, Entertainers are the friendly, fond-hearted Artisans, those SPs who want to amuse or to charm others, and whose first impulse is to inform those around them by making or showing them something beautiful or exciting."[/b]
    YEAH!!

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Jeffster

    I'm all about how I make people feel. I don't want bad things to happen. I want exciting GOOD things to happen. I don't want to make people feel nervous and edgy, I want them to feel happy and thrilled, I want to cheer them up, make them laugh, in some cases I want them to make out with me.

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Jeffster

    I'm in the business of making wishes come true.
    What thread did these two quotes come from? I love them! Where's that obnoxious but nonetheless necessary blinking heart emoticon? Oh here. See, this is such a help, because even despite my believing I haven't been mistyped, I still get stuck wondering now and then if I'm an INFP because I'm very introspective and thoughtful (and there are still boatloads of people out there who think those terms apply to only Ns), and yet you've just mentioned exactly what brings me joy in life and makes me really feel intensely alive. I am so totally driven to charm other people and delight them. It's the motivator behind a lot of what I do, and why I love to surprise people with things I've made or done for them. It give me a huge, HUGE high. I've always privately described it to myself as "seducing" people into enjoying the possibilities in front of them, but I've never felt comfortable with that word because it's sexual and I don't mean it in that way.

    Sarah

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