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  1. #21
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    I wont read it, I neglect this knowledge for my own security.

    If I'ld read it, I probably will start psychoanalyzing my dad and that will get me in great istp trouble
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

  2. #22

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    It's interesting that Jeffster finds Keirsey's theory applicable to himself at least.

    You know, if you guys are up to it, and if we ever start-up a debate section, I think it would be very illuminating to have an SP who finds Keirsey's descriptions applicable (like Jeffster?) and an SP who doesn't (like Sarah?) discuss the (de)merits of Temperament theory--especially since Jeffster and Sarah self-indentify as the same archetype (ISFP).

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  3. #23
    soft and silky sarah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ygolo View Post
    It's interesting that Jeffster finds Keirsey's theory applicable to himself at least.

    You know, if you guys are up to it, and if we ever start-up a debate section, I think it would be very illuminating to have an SP who finds Keirsey's descriptions applicable (like Jeffster?) and an SP who doesn't (like Sarah?) discuss the (de)merits of Temperament theory--especially since Jeffster and Sarah self-indentify as the same archetype (ISFP).

    I would find debating the merits of Keirsey with Jeffster interesting too, and would happily do that if Jeffster were interested. I feel like we're both "typical" ISFPs but in completely different ways. Jeffster's personality seems to embody the friendly, entertaining, playful side of the SP temperament, whereas I guess I embody the gracefulness-in-action, aesthetic "fine artist" side. (those are huge generalizations, of course --- Jeffster is no doubt gracful in some aspects of his life and I've got a pretty good sense of humor, and can on occasion make people laugh.)

    I really have no problem with Keirseyan Temperament Theory, but the descriptions do put me off, mainly examples of behavior in the SP chapter. They're extremely limited, and sometimes downright not true at all.

    Sarah
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  4. #24
    Senior Member ThatsWhatHeSaid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffster View Post
    You didn't actually read the first post did you? The part where an admin told me I could put it in the MBTI section?
    No, I didn't.

  5. #25
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sarah View Post
    I really have no problem with Keirseyan Temperament Theory, but the descriptions do put me off, mainly examples of behavior in the SP chapter. They're extremely limited, and sometimes downright not true at all.
    I always have to imagine this estp hunter, with big horny glasses studying type philosophy .

    I think you are very right, the few descriptions I read especially about the SP temperament range from bad to worse. They are true for certain member of the species, but they do not grasp the whole picture.

    There are only two possible answers to that dilema, the first: type theory is bullshit or the second: noone of the SP really cross-referenced it yet that means their descriptions just lack first hand input + information.

    I am more a fan of the function theory and their distribution within a personality shown through ones preferences. If you look at MBTI from an objective scale, it is really no measurement of your true self. If you have done like 30.000 MBTI test's and you tried to answer them coherently, what means you were sure about your answers, there will be a pattern emerging and your MBTI type then is nothing more than the image of this pattern.

    If you think about it that way, whole personality descriptions that say for example "ISFP is THE artist" will loose its charme. It would be more right for them to say, ISFP have an inclination towards art, because of their function distribution, but to say what they are exactly or to speak of subjective existing facts, I find sometimes disturbing aswell.

    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

  6. #26
    soft and silky sarah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by entropie View Post
    I always have to imagine this estp hunter, with big horny glasses studying type philosophy .

    I think you are very right, the few descriptions I read especially about the SP temperament range from bad to worse. They are true for certain member of the species, but they do not grasp the whole picture.

    There are only two possible answers to that dilema, the first: type theory is bullshit or the second: noone of the SP really cross-referenced it yet that means their descriptions just lack first hand input + information.
    I figure Keirsey was just trying to be colorful and obvious for the sake of making comparisons, but the downside is that people who are using Keirsey's descriptions as a benchmark to tell them what the Artisan temperament looks like won't be able to notice the Artisan temperament in many actual SPs.

    Quote Originally Posted by entropie View Post
    I am more a fan of the function theory and their distribution within a personality shown through ones preferences. If you look at MBTI from an objective scale, it is really no measurement of your true self. If you have done like 30.000 MBTI test's and you tried to answer them coherently, what means you were sure about your answers, there will be a pattern emerging and your MBTI type then is nothing more than the image of this pattern.

    If you think about it that way, whole personality descriptions that say for example "ISFP is THE artist" will loose its charme. It would be more right for them to say, ISFP have an inclination towards art, because of their function distribution, but to say what they are exactly or to speak of subjective existing facts, I find sometimes disturbing aswell.
    Yes, I agree. Your lifelong interests often have a lot more to do with what you've been exposed to and been given encouragement to develop than anything else. And predicting the potential interests of any one type or temperament also confuses things. For a long time I thought I couldn't be an SP because I wasn't "athletic", and it took a long time for me to figure out that what Isabel Myers and Keirsey meant by "athletic" didn't mean necessarily playing ball games. They just meant that SPs, being centered in the concrete and in the here-and-now, tend to be very aware of their physicality -- which is actually very true for me.

    Sarah
    ISFP

  7. #27
    veteran attention whore Jeffster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sarah View Post
    Hahaha! Yo'ure right, what'm I thinking? You were naturally referring to the healthy variety of "cheeseburgers" -- as in, organic veggieburgers with melted lowfat organic Gruyère de Comté cheese on top. And sandwiched in a whole grain wheat bun.
    Ugh. The wheat bun's not too bad but the rest of that sounds awful. You can make a pretty healthy cheeseburger just by using extra lean beef and not cooking it in heavy oils. (actually I have no idea what that french cheese you said is, it might be good.)


    Quote Originally Posted by entropie View Post
    I always have to imagine this estp hunter, with big horny glasses studying type philosophy .

    I think you are very right, the few descriptions I read especially about the SP temperament range from bad to worse. They are true for certain member of the species, but they do not grasp the whole picture.
    Hey entropie..I appreciate your insight, but once again, debating the validity of Keirsey's theories is not the purpose of this thread. Thanks.
    Jeffster Illustrates the Artisan Temperament <---- click here

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  8. #28
    veteran attention whore Jeffster's Avatar
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    Well, I was gonna wait until I had some more examples for this section, but I'm too impatient, so I'm just gonna post it now, and if I think of more to add later to this part, I'll just add it on as "additional notes" or something. I mean, it's not like I'm getting a grade on this, right? Right?

    So...moving on...

    Utilitarian Tool Usage

    Okay, here's your musical accompaniment for today's lesson...

    Click here and let the song play in the background as you read.

    First, I better go back to the previous chapter briefly to quote how Keirsey defines the word "tool." When I see the word, I tend to think of it literally (as we've established already, that's my default mode pretty much), so I think of a wrench or a screwdriver or a power saw. All these things ARE tools of course, but we're talking about a much broader definition here...

    "Nearly everything we do to implement our goals requires several kinds of tools used both simultaneously and successively. No matter where we look we see tools in every direction, inside or outside our homes and throughout our communities. The house itself is an enormously complex tool. Everything in it is a tool - chairs, tables, books, computer, television, phone, radio, pictures, lamps, rugs, boxes, on an on and on. Our vehicles are tools as are our roads and bridges and walkways and even our clothes. Civilization itself is created and maintained by tools."

    So, by this definition, tools aren't just stuff found at the hardware store, but all kinds of things, including naturally occurring things such as our voices or parts of our bodies. Once that's understood, you can understand why most of the examples I'll point to in this section don't really have that much to do with using wrenches and hammers, they are more about the methods used, and a general need to rebel against authority and traditions that don't seem to have a purpose.

    In the Artisan chapter, Keirsey goes on to say...

    "In implementing their goals, or as they say 'going for it', Artisans are primarily interested in what works, what fits, and only secondarily in what meets with social approval. The root of the word 'art' means 'to fit together' and SP artists even call their productions "works of art," all of which suggests that a thing must be useful to interest an Artisan, immediately useful, concretely useful, otherwise who needs it? If some action doesn't fit your intention and advance you toward your goal, then why do it? NTs share this utilitarian, whatever-works mindset with SPs, but functional utility in the concrete differs from functional utility in the abstract. SPs do not map out the relationship between means and ends as do NTs. Artisans simply and without hesitation give the chosen operation a try, put it to the test, give it a whirl or a shakedown cruise. If it works it is used, if it doesn't it is set aside without a second thought."


    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffster View Post
    Eh, it kinda depends on what kind of "traditional order" you're talking about. I mean, we're not too likely to follow a tradition because The Man tells us it's right, but we're quite likely to follow traditions that have been passed down to us but we've experienced enough to see the effectiveness of. I'm likely to follow a "tried and true" method of doing something if I believe that it works, and not feel a strong compulsion to change it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffster View Post
    What is the purpose of understanding the concept? Is it not to then apply that concept in some way? By doing something with it?


    I don't know, when you talk in vague terms, there's little that I know to tell you. But, to use an example of a theory/concept that I have come to understand, take MBTI, the reason I'm here. I did not learn MBTI as a concept/theory, I learned about it by reading the type descriptions that talked about people's actual behavior in life and then the stuff about recognizing the patterns of behavior to identify types. If I had started reading all that cognitive function formula stuff first, I would have never got into it, because on the surface, that's just a bunch of gibberish to me. I still zone out on discussions on this forum that get too heavily into endless theoretical hypothesis, instead of talking about how these things actually play out in the real world. So, it sounds like an example of what you call "working backwards" even though it seems completely forwards to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffster View Post
    ...I had and still have the desire to refuse to cooperate with others' agendas. Now sometimes I cooperate anyway, but that urge to rebel is always there, and it definitely doesn't come from being spoiled, because I wasn't. I don't think it comes from resentment of my upbringing either, I just think it's my natural tendency. I don't want to be told what to do. Ever. But I accept that sometimes I'm going to be, and when it's my boss for instance, I need to accept reality and do what I've been told. But I always try to change it up a little, make some part of it my own idea. Which at my job isn't too hard, I can change up the order I do things and still get them done.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffster View Post
    One time when I was probably 7 or 8, we were at my ESTJ grandmother's house, and she brought me a bowl of ice cream after my meal. I didn't immediately say "thank you" so she took the bowl away. I said "No! Bring it back!" She did and set it down again and waited for a second. I still didn't say "thank you" so she took it away again.

    I knew what she wanted me to say, and that's precisely why I couldn't do it. It was more important for me to maintain my own personal freedom by fighting her on that than it was to get the yummy tasty ice cream that awaited me if I only said two measly words.

    I never had any explanation for that confrontation before I started reading the personality type stuff. Now I see it as a pretty classic SJ authority vs. SP child battle. Neither of us were gonna give an inch because we both thought our way was best. I regretted not having the ice cream, but I still wouldn't admit defeat, because she didn't get me to bow to her rules. When I tell people of other temperaments that story, they don't understand why I would deny my own pleasure just to resist being directed. It doesn't make any sense to them, but my fellow SPs know exactly what I'm talking about.
    My rebellious nature would lead to all kinds of other fun experiences as I got older, but one simple one I had was rooting against any of the local favorite sports teams. College Station is home to Texas A&M University, the aggies, and so of course, that was the first thing on my hate list, as I gleefully wished the aggies to lose at everything so I could gloat about how they were dumb and deserved it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffster View Post
    When we moved to College Station, we got a free board game from the chamber of commerce that was a map of the city and the game pieces were various sponsor businesses that moved around the board and discovered things about the history of the city, I think..something like that anyway, it was a long time ago, I was 6.

    Anyway, the piece I selected was the one sponsored by the company that owned two of the radio stations in town, KORA-FM and KTAM-AM. Now I learned quickly from my school peers that KTAM was the preferred station among the youth (it was a top 40/pop/rock station, yes they still had them on AM in those days.) So I chose to listen to the other one because I'm a rebel and a non-conformist and I always chose the one that was in the minority on almost everything.

    KORA played country music, and I found myself listening for long periods of time, even though I really didn't like a whole lot of the songs. To me, it was more than just the actual songs played, the whole broadcast was an entire package. The DJs, the commercial, the news reports, it was like this perfect amalgamation of parts that formed the essence of the experience. Now obviously I wouldn't have put it in those terms when I was 6 or 7 years old, but it was the feeling I had.

    Like a lot of things, I grew tired of it though, and didn't listen to much radio for a little while until around the fall of 1984 when I started third grade. That was when two families moved to town that would have a huge impact on my life. One had a boy my age who would become my first real best friend and shape my humor, values, and even my vocabulary for the rest of my life, and the other had four kids who would change my life in many ways and a mother who would eventually become my stepmother.

    That second boy my age was named Jackie, and he was the one who really introduced me to pop/rock music. He showed me that there were actually three of those top 40 stations in town, not just KTAM. See, this made it all different for me. I wasn't just following the crowd. I had choices! As it turns out, I discovered that most of the kids at school by that time were listening to the newest of the pop stations, KKYS (Kiss 105.) So I chose the third option, KTAW (92-K) to be my favorite. Not by carefully listening and determining it to be the best, but because it was the choice that was least talked about by the crowd. Are you sensing the pattern, here?
    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffster View Post
    You can't make me.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffster View Post
    Nah, I'm not about putting unreasonable restrictions on people.


    So, in a way, you could say "utilitarian" can also mean "non-conformist." Because sometimes, it's not even about what actually works, it's more about wanting for it to be my idea and not forced upon me by someone else. I hate being a copycat, being unoriginal, doing stuff because it's what everybody else is doing or because "that's just the way it's done." I can love other people coming up with new ideas too, but I still don't even entirely want to do it their way, I always want to put my own stamp on it, in some way create something else out of it. It's like a hunger to be my own man and follow my own ways, yes, indeed, a "rebel without a cause."

    "No high-flown speculation for the Artisan, no deep meaning or introspection. Leave to others the protocol, the scientific inquiry, the inward search. SPs focus on what actually happens in the real world, on what works, what pays off, and not on whose toes get stepped on, what principles are involved, or why things happen."

    I think this is basically true, but this may be the first real place in the chapter where Dr. K paints with a little too broad a brush, because I think the Feeling Artisans (especially ISFPs) differ a bit here. I don't want to step on any toes if I can avoid it (you know, unless she's hot and she's into that for some reason) and I DO have principles. I want everybody to be having a good time, but preferably in ways that don't hurt people. And I obviously have done some inward searching, I figure just about everybody has. But I can tell just from reading the topics on this forum that very obviously I don't do it as much as some of you do. I don't have to try to "find myself." I found myself years ago, and I've been stuck with me ever since. Sure, sometimes I might wanna get away from myself, but I always come back to me, like the prodigal son, I welcome me back with open arms and get me some food and something to drink....okay, that's just weird, sorry.

    Overall summary would be, somebody tells me something, immediate brain reaction is "why do I need to know this? Is it useful to me in any way?" Now the use doesn't have to be anything more than amusement. If it's a funny anecdote, then that's all it has to do. If it goes beyond that, for instance someone wanting to teach me something, then I've got to see some practical use for whatever it is. I don't have a desire to learn something just to know it. If I can't do anything with it, then blah. It's kinda like a constant, natural panning for gold of ideas. I'm gonna toss all the rocks and shells and crap (you know, unless they're cool looking) because I'm looking for the gold. There's only so much time in the day, the week, the month, the year, LIFE, to waste time on filling my head with useless info. Now, my definition of useless might be totally different than many other people's. There's lots of stuff I know that a lot of people get nothing out of. For instance, I know a lot of music chart trivia and info about the musical artists. Most of this I have acquired from my years of listening to top 40 radio countdown shows. I've now got a collection of over 2000 of them on CD or on the computer. Now, for some people, that's just useless info, for others, it's actually interesting, and I have amused and amazed several people with my ability to "name that tune", "name that album", "name that artist", "name how high that song got on the charts", etc. So for me, it HAS been useful, for my own and others' amusement.

    So, I'll let that stuff sink in for a bit, and next time, we'll talk a little about tactics.
    Jeffster Illustrates the Artisan Temperament <---- click here

    "I like the sigs with quotes in them from other forum members." -- Oberon

    The SP Spazz Youtube Channel

  9. #29
    soft and silky sarah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffster View Post
    "No high-flown speculation for the Artisan, no deep meaning or introspection. Leave to others the protocol, the scientific inquiry, the inward search. SPs focus on what actually happens in the real world, on what works, what pays off, and not on whose toes get stepped on, what principles are involved, or why things happen."

    I think this is basically true, but this may be the first real place in the chapter where Dr. K paints with a little too broad a brush, because I think the Feeling Artisans (especially ISFPs) differ a bit here. I don't want to step on any toes if I can avoid it (you know, unless she's hot and she's into that for some reason) and I DO have principles. I want everybody to be having a good time, but preferably in ways that don't hurt people. And I obviously have done some inward searching, I figure just about everybody has. But I can tell just from reading the topics on this forum that very obviously I don't do it as much as some of you do. I don't have to try to "find myself." I found myself years ago, and I've been stuck with me ever since. Sure, sometimes I might wanna get away from myself, but I always come back to me, like the prodigal son, I welcome me back with open arms and get me some food and something to drink....okay, that's just weird, sorry.

    RRrrrrrg! I HATE that line of Keirsey's! Hate it! Hate it! Hate it! It's so untrue! And I vividly recall trashing Keirsey on another type discussion list for sentences just like this one! I see myself as very introspective, and I do very much care whether or not I end up stepping on other people to get what I want. My aim isn't to get what I want regardless of whom I hurt. It's stuff like this that made me totally dismiss the SP temperament as being a bunch of moral morons who have nothing in common with me, and it took me a LOOOOONG time to finally figure out that the Artisan pattern fit me much more than the Idealist temperament pattern, but first I had to totally forget about stupid lines from Please Understand Me like the one just quoted. It's true that I don't concern myself with scientific inquiry and protocol, but I hate how he reduces SPs to describing them as people who think there's NO value at all in introspection -- notice he says "NO interest", not just "a different, more concrete, practical kind of interest". I know Keirsey has no regard at all for the cognitive functions, but how can you possibly be dominant Fi and not consider all the time whether some action you're about to take is in line with what you believe is worth caring about? I do believe there's a subtle but real difference between the kind of "inward searching" that Idealists tend to do and the kind that some SPs like me do, but it sure doesn't help clarify the difference if Keirsey dismisses SPs by saying they "never" take into consideration anything but our present moment urges. Keirsey totally missed the boat with that one.

    Besides, I've actually learned things just to know them, unlike you. If something strikes me as being entertaining, I learn it. Maybe it'll come in useful someday, but that's not the point -- the point is, for some weird reason it pleases me to know about it.

    yeah, I know, I'm ruining this for you, aren't I?

    Sarah
    ISFP
    .

  10. #30
    veteran attention whore Jeffster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sarah View Post
    yeah, I know, I'm ruining this for you, aren't I?
    Nah. There were definitely places in the book (and not just the Artisan parts) where I found myself wishing he's put "many" or "often" instead of just making blanket statements. But when I thought about more, I came to the conclusion that he was just trying to be confident in his presentation, and the entire concept of personality types or temperaments doesn't hold at all unless you can say "well, that's not entirely true for me (or someone I know) but I can see the overall pattern." Believe me, that's tough for me to do too. When I first read Keirsey's description of "Dionysians" in the original "Please Understand Me", I dismissed completely as being totally not me, because I focused on what I considered negative about it, and thought of it as only presenting the type of person I went to high school with who cared about nothing but getting drunk all the time, and I hated those people. Later on, though, I was able to admit that a whole lot of it fit me, because I had all those impulses he was talking about, I just dealt with them in a different way.

    I think he's got to be simplistic sometimes when he's describing millions of people at the same time. I mean, heck., watch the political party conventions. There's not even four groups then, there's two. And they'll make blanket statements like "Democrats believe in.." and "Republicans believe in..." and obviously there's people watching who are members of that party who may completely disagree on that issue, but they accept it because of their overall identification. I think that's what I've done with the Artisan temperament, and you'll notice that I focus a lot more on how certain things manifest themselves through me, and less time nitpicking if a certain line doesn't really strike me as accurate, because in anything written to describe millions (or perhaps billions) of people, is going to have some elements that don't apply to everybody.

    Now, if I get done with this and find you've deleted your post again, you're going to owe me a coke.
    Jeffster Illustrates the Artisan Temperament <---- click here

    "I like the sigs with quotes in them from other forum members." -- Oberon

    The SP Spazz Youtube Channel

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