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Flip-floppin' types

gloomy-optimist

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good points but I think we will have to agree to disagree on the nature vs. nurture. :)

That's absolutely fine~ Everyone's entitled to their own opinions; there's really no answer in this issue that we can determine yet :B
 

Venom

Babylon Candle
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good points but I think we will have to agree to disagree on the nature vs. nurture. :)

And here's the "down goes Fraser" moment:
nature determines how one responds to nurture.

I also think that stress can cause mistyping, due to one's typological shadow being visible during this time.

when I first typed myself, I grossly overemphasized certain qualities due to the amount of stress I was under (and the religion that took advantage of that vulnerability in stress).
 

MissMurder

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when I first typed myself, I grossly overemphasized certain qualities due to the amount of stress I was under (and the religion that took advantage of that vulnerability in stress).

Yes, that sounds very similar to my experience as well. I'm glad you found yourself in the end.
 

mlittrell

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In response to the first part; well, I suppose all things considering, yes. But think about it; if you were in a world where there was nothing to think about, then what would you think about? You couldn't think about the universe; the only universe you know is a single room. You couldn't think about your surroundings or time or anything, because you'd have no concept of it; in a white room where nothing changes, then how would you even know things COULD change? There could be an internal restlessness, but you wouldn't be able to expand it; there would literally be nothing.

Where did you find that information on that gene? I'd like to check that out ;)

IDK123: Your moving around a lot might actually have a lot to do with how your personality developed. Children, even when they are very young, are very in-tune to their environment, more so than I think some people give them credit.
If you were moving around a lot, you might have started to notice the patterns of moving and subtleties that allowed you to predict when it might happen again. That might helped the development of your N. And with your F, it might have happened that they did not, either because of time constraints or inconsistancy, exercise a preference towards "rational" thinking, or, being a young child, you may have developed more F because of a need for affection that you may have wanted but may not have been getting...

thought and personality are two different things, ya you wouldn't be able to think about anything but would you still have a personality. of course. now it wouldn't be a normal personality...at all...but im sure that the processes in the brain that are described by MBTI would still be there nonetheless.

and the information about the introversion extroversion is a generally accepted discovery. all that to say, i got it from a reliable source ;)

and the ISTJ question was directed at gloomy-optimist, though i appreciate your response
 

gloomy-optimist

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thought and personality are two different things, ya you wouldn't be able to think about anything but would you still have a personality. of course. now it wouldn't be a normal personality...at all...but im sure that the processes in the brain that are described by MBTI would still be there nonetheless.

and the information about the introversion extroversion is a generally accepted discovery. all that to say, i got it from a reliable source ;)

and the ISTJ question was directed at gloomy-optimist, though i appreciate your response

But here's the main question; what would the brain process? I mean, think about this: how could you be introverted or extroverted when there is nothing to react to? How could you think about the future, or notice your surroundings, when they are unchanging? What would you think about rationally, and what would you feel emotionally, if there was nothing to provoke any thought (although emotion would probably be present in the form of frustrations, but a full spectrum of emotion would probably not be very visible)? And what is there to organize; when would you be spontaneous? It's not a matter of personality and thought; it's a matter of personality and outside stimulus. There would nothing that would provoke the development of a personality, whether we're talking about nature or about nurture. The functions of a personality would be horribly underdeveloped.
I'd imagine that anyone that would come out of that situation would find it very difficult to deal with the sudden over-stimulation of the outside world. It doesn't have to do with thought so much as the absence of something to think about.

As for the gene, I have to remain skeptical...I'm sorry; I'm really not trying to be stubborn ^^;
But from what I know about genetics, it seems very...unlikely to me that there would be a single gene that would determine that. It would most likely be a series of different genes that work together to make that; if that were the case, then it would also be possible to have different combinations that would make one person "more" extroverted," another "less extroverted," etc, depending on how many "extroverted" genes they would have...
What would the dominant and recessive genes be? I mean, what would show up where?
I just don't think genetics are as easy as that :/
 

mlittrell

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of course there is no single gene for introversion and extroversion but they have been linked to genetics.

also there would be emotions in a white, square room. now you make a good point...what would they be based off of? now the way i see it, that person will feel emotion and will make logical deductions and such, but the range to which he/she feels/thinks it will be determined by the environment. yes, the environment has an (large) effect, but the environment doesn't create emotional thought processes. or, for you thinkers out there, logical thought processes. all the environment does is give logic and emotion range, BUT, it does not create it. it was always there to begin with.
 

gloomy-optimist

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of course there is no single gene for introversion and extroversion but they have been linked to genetics.

also there would be emotions in a white, square room. now you make a good point...what would they be based off of? now the way i see it, that person will feel emotion and will make logical deductions and such, but the range to which he/she feels/thinks it will be determined by the environment. yes, the environment has an (large) effect, but the environment doesn't create emotional thought processes. or, for you thinkers out there, logical thought processes. all the environment does is give logic and emotion range, BUT, it does not create it. it was always there to begin with.

Well, where does emotional/rational thought process originate? I mean, what would you think about? What sort of thoughts could you have in an unchanging, uninteresting, barren, blank environment?
 

mlittrell

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near to none but the point is that there is still logical processes and emotional processes going on, as small as they might be, they still exist
 

gloomy-optimist

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Okay; so I was wondering about this all because there really didn't seem to be too much of an obvious answer on either side; there were kind of strong arguments all around. So I talked to my student life director at school; she did her doctorate on mbti and birth order, so she knows a lot, to say the least. I asked her about the nurture vs. nature argument, and she showed me studies on identical twins that actually show evidence to nature having a founding role.
Thus, I will be humble and admit there are some rather large holes in my argument ;)

But, I'm still interested in exploring further; I don't think that's a single answer in itself. As I said, she also studies birth order, and there is a fairly strong correlation between birth order and the way a person reacts to his environment and other people, esp. if the birth order changed before the age of 5. So doesn't that show, at least a little bit, that things like birth order in childhood could effect personality, enough so that there is an area of study devoted to it? And wouldn't that mean that there is a certain amount of nurture factors that do have a connection with establishing types, or at least swaying it a bit?
I don't know, but I would like to talk to her a bit more about it; it's really intriguing. The more there is, the less clear the verdict seems to be to me :/

mlittrell: Yep :) As I said, there would be some basic emotion and all that; however, it would still be very limited. There is only so much to think about or show emotion to if you have no concept of color, shape, language, time, or other life.
The next debate would be whether this would be enough to actually create a true personality; they would be very socially deficient, and as a child completely without stimulus it's very possible for severe forms of mental disability to set in.
 

mlittrell

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i have full blown respect for someone who can put up a good debate and i must say you did so beautifully. so props and thank you :) also, would you mind doing me a very large favor and find out more info on the study about nature vs. nurture? i would highly appreciate that because it is extremely interesting especially coming from someone who did her doctorate on it. thanks :)

and as far as the white room argument, i doubt their personality would be developed enough to function and im sure that going into the real world would create a massive sensory overload lol.
 

gloomy-optimist

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i have full blown respect for someone who can put up a good debate and i must say you did so beautifully. so props and thank you :) also, would you mind doing me a very large favor and find out more info on the study about nature vs. nurture? i would highly appreciate that because it is extremely interesting especially coming from someone who did her doctorate on it. thanks :)

and as far as the white room argument, i doubt their personality would be developed enough to function and im sure that going into the real world would create a massive sensory overload lol.

I am planning on finding more out about it: how much does genetics control type; how much does things like birth order control type; how the percentage of types are related to genetics; etc. There's really a lot that goes into it :yes:

And thank you~ It's nice to find someone who will actually debate civilly with me, especially when it comes to putting up with my stubbornness :B
 

mlittrell

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And thank you~ It's nice to find someone who will actually debate civilly with me, especially when it comes to putting up with my stubbornness :B
haha you know this is one of the few civil debates i think ive ever had on mbtic. and dont worry i highly enjoy someone who puts up a fight, i dont care if i lose as long there is a good debate :) as far as the genetics goes, there is going to be a whole lot of factors, especially as far as pinpointing genes
 

gloomy-optimist

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haha you know this is one of the few civil debates i think ive ever had on mbtic. and dont worry i highly enjoy someone who puts up a fight, i dont care if i lose as long there is a good debate :) as far as the genetics goes, there is going to be a whole lot of factors, especially as far as pinpointing genes

That's true, in so many ways. I'm beginning to think the whole argument of nature vs. nurture is highly misleading; it's more like %nature + %nurture. I'd really like to see some real research on genetics and MTBI typology, but I'm not sure how an undertaking like that would work....
 

mlittrell

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That's true, in so many ways. I'm beginning to think the whole argument of nature vs. nurture is highly misleading; it's more like %nature + %nurture. I'd really like to see some real research on genetics and MTBI typology, but I'm not sure how an undertaking like that would work....
exactly...i completely agree. ya it can be misleading, the way some people put it is 60% nature 40% nurture. how true that is i really dont know. and personally i dont think much research will be done... unfortunately im pretty sure MBTI research is dead
 

gloomy-optimist

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exactly...i completely agree. ya it can be misleading, the way some people put it is 60% nature 40% nurture. how true that is i really dont know. and personally i dont think much research will be done... unfortunately im pretty sure MBTI research is dead

Which is a real shame! I think we actually really see something in MBTI; we can associate it to ourselves. There are a lot of other personality tests and explanations out there, but none have been as right-on as MBTI with me. And there's so many more ways we could expand the knowledge....
 

CrystalViolet

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There are studies out there that indicate that extroversion and introversion are inherent traits from a very young age.
As for sensing versus intiutive, based on nothing but my gut feeling, it would seem that would be based significantly on psyhiological differences, which by it's psyhical nature, is genetically based. It's taking in the whole picture vs. analyses part by part. I'm may have got the wrong end of the stick there, but essentially that what I think intuitition and sensing boils down to. From what I have read, these two processes are fundmentally different branching out to learning styles and what not, which of course use slightly different parts of the brain etc.
If you take the princple of personality and bearing it in mind when looking to other areas of psychology, such as brain development, child development, learning styles, even emotional intellingence, for me at least, it becomes apparent that certain traits are inherent.
Others I do think are a little more malliable, I tend to think feeling vs Thinking appears determined by upbringing, or at least the balance of how much one thought process is utilised over the other. This is my own personal experience, as I tend to type either INFP or INTP. I think P and J tend to be a bit more enviromentally determined also. I read some where the 1st four functions are displayed and developed in the order through childhood i.e. I/E almost from birth, N/S from six months etc.
 

wildcat

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Some people state emphatically type cannot be changed over time, others say it can.

What say you and why?
A type is a flip flop.
The environment changes. All the time. The brain adapts to the environment.
And it changes accordingly.
 

wildcat

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Yes. You are perfectly right.
There are also other studies. The viewpoint is completely changed.
Good work.
 

gloomy-optimist

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There are studies out there that indicate that extroversion and introversion are inherent traits from a very young age.
As for sensing versus intiutive, based on nothing but my gut feeling, it would seem that would be based significantly on psyhiological differences, which by it's psyhical nature, is genetically based. It's taking in the whole picture vs. analyses part by part. I'm may have got the wrong end of the stick there, but essentially that what I think intuitition and sensing boils down to. From what I have read, these two processes are fundmentally different branching out to learning styles and what not, which of course use slightly different parts of the brain etc.
If you take the princple of personality and bearing it in mind when looking to other areas of psychology, such as brain development, child development, learning styles, even emotional intellingence, for me at least, it becomes apparent that certain traits are inherent.
Others I do think are a little more malliable, I tend to think feeling vs Thinking appears determined by upbringing, or at least the balance of how much one thought process is utilised over the other. This is my own personal experience, as I tend to type either INFP or INTP. I think P and J tend to be a bit more enviromentally determined also. I read some where the 1st four functions are displayed and developed in the order through childhood i.e. I/E almost from birth, N/S from six months etc.

Very good analysis! I would be inclined to agree with that, to an extent. :)
That would also make sense with something I've seen in the INFJ forum:

"Phases of development for the INFJ Personality Type:

From age 0 - 6 years
At this early age, we use all four of the functions in an indiscriminate fashion. We "try on" the different functions for size, determining which ones work best for us. The little INFJ has not yet emerged as any particular personality type, although his parents may notice trends in behavior which appear to have the characteristics of one or more types.

From 6 - 12 years
During this phase, our dominant function begins to develop and assert itself. Our young INFJ begins to appear dreamy and introspective - he begins to prefer to use his iNtuition to take in information, and he chooses to do this alone (Introverted). The dominant function of "Introverted iNtuition" begins to show itself as the prevailing aspect of his personality.

From 12 - 20 years
The auxiliary function asserts itself as a powerful support to the dominant function. Since all recent studies point towards the importance of a well-developed team of dominant AND auxiliary functions, this is an important time of "self-identification". Research suggests that people without a strong auxiliary function to complement their dominant function have real problems.
In our INFJ example, we see the auxiliary Feeling function come to the front during this phase as a support to the dominant iNtuitive function. Since the INFJ's dominant function is an Information Gathering function, the auxilary function must be a Decision Making one. Without a Decision Making process, we would flounder about and never get anything done! As the auxilary Feeling process comes forth, the INFJ begins to develop the ability to make decisions based on his personal value system. This auxiliary decision making process will be Extraverted, since the dominant function is Introverted. Since the decision making function is Extraverted, our subject now emerges as a "Judger", rather than a "Perceiver". Our INFJ Personality Type is now pretty firmly set in place, and we know the dominance ordering of the four functions.

From 20 - 35 years
We begin to use our tertiary function more frequently and with better success. Our INFJ begins to use his Introverted Thinking function. He continues to make judgments with his Extreverted Feeling auxiliary function, but he also begins to make judgments based on logic and reason, which he works through in his own mind, rather than discussing it with others.

From 35 - 50 years
We pay attention to our fourth, inferior function. We feel a need to develop it and use it more effectively. Our INFJ begins to use his Extraverted Sensing function. He becomes more aware of his surroundings and begins to take in information from others in a more literal, practical sense. He continues to rely on his dominant Introverted iNtuitive function to take in information, but he is more able to use his Extraverted Sensing function than he has been before in his life. Some researchers have attested that the appearance of our inferior functions at this phase of life may be responsible for what we commonly call the "mid-life crisis".

From 50 onwards
From this age until our deaths, we have accessibility to all four functions. However, we use them in a more disciplined, differentiated manner than when we were very young. Our basic Personality Type continues to assert itself, but we are able to call upon all four functions when needed."

I've been really look around about this...Because each function is determined as being "introverted" or "extroverted", it would make sense that intro/extroversion could be based in genetics, along with our "main" function, that being either S or N.
So an INFJ may be born with a innate preference towards Ni, or introverted iNtuition... which would show the first two letters to be INxx.

Which basically I'm just summarizing everything you've said, but yeah ^^;
 
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