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Flip-floppin' types

mlittrell

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Sep 3, 2008
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ENFP
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9w1
how old is the material it came from or how old is the baby lol? The material is from the 70s I suppose and the age of the baby isn't specified. I always considered a baby to be from newborn to one...maybe two. I don't have kids though.
 

Kristiana

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Dec 28, 2007
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I find changes in type to be highly unlikely. Exceptions include traumatic events or brain injuries.
 

mlittrell

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^ exactly. and those changes are still just deviations of type, not a complete change necessarily. unless its super traumatic.
 

gloomy-optimist

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how old is the material it came from or how old is the baby lol? The material is from the 70s I suppose and the age of the baby isn't specified. I always considered a baby to be from newborn to one...maybe two. I don't have kids though.

The age of the kid :) Some people actually consider kids to be "babies" anywhere between ages 0-3, and I've known some people to call them that until the age of 5; it's not really a defining variable, in any case.
Either way, the age is a very important factor in comparing nature vs. nurture.
 

Venom

Babylon Candle
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sp/sx
The theory is flexible enough to incorporate "personality changes"
When Bruce Wayne goes from INFP kid/adult to getting angry with ESTJ shadow he is still an INFP. When Anakin ENFP gets pissed and turns into ISTJ Darth Vader, he is still at heart an ENFP.


Here is what I played with as kid:
I played with Legos so much that its all I ever wanted for christmas.
I watched the history channel from a young age, back when it was actually the history channel and not the conspiracy-theory-entertainment-channel it is today... (history recounting writing is usaully Te, like philosophy is Ti right?)
I owned just about every Real Time Strategy game they made....and would play them for hours upon hours.
I "figured out" computers in an intuitive sense, far before my parents ever became computer literate. I taught myself HTML before all these fancy programs were being used by everyday people.

Ya I would say personality starts pretty young ...

edit: the theory I read about batman was refering to socionics INFj
 

Ilah

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Jul 13, 2008
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Well, first of all, if anyone pressures you to change types when you've already have one fully established, then it's just not going to work. In developmental psychology, although habits may change while you get older, the basis of your personality is developed in the early stages of life; in other words, you were who you are probably by the age of 5, maybe earlier. If you try to change that later...well, it's probably not going to work. You can strengthen functions, but unless there's some very drastic changes, you probably won't deviate preferences.

I don't believe type is based on "unconcious rebellion" because it is basically learned at a very young age, before any real pressure of the type you're describing is probably put on.

As for environment, here's a few questions; were you an only child, or did you play a lot on your own? Did your parents give you a lot of rational exercises (like certain toys), and are your parents, guardians, or caretakers (such as babysitters or whatnot, if your parents work a lot) prone more towards rational thinking, or did they encourage those behaviors when you were very young?
There's a lot of things to consider when you're talking about developmental psychology; it's not really a case of "this happened, so now I'm like this." There are many factors that contribute.


I am the oldest child. My brother was not born till I was 5 1/2. If this all happens before age 5, I guess I would count as an only child, for this purpose. I did have some legos and building toys, but I am not sure if that was before age 5 or not. They didn't have the kind with big pieces geared toward younger kids at that time. There were lots of books in the house, but I was not able to read before age 5.

My dad is pretty heavy on the T side, so it could be argued that I picked that up from him, even though my mom played a much larger role in child rearing than him. It would seem more likely that I would pick up Fe from my mom who was a strong Fe and also took me with her on frequent visits with Fe friends and relatives.

It is ironic to think that though my mother clearly wanted a girl of the same personality type as her, some things she did may have contributed to me being almost the opposite personality type as her.

The dominate N is a mystery though. Both my parents seem to be S, but my brother and I are both N. My younger brother could have turned out N because of my influence on him, but I don't know what would have caused me to turn out N.

Ilah
 

gloomy-optimist

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I am the oldest child. My brother was not born till I was 5 1/2. If this all happens before age 5, I guess I would count as an only child, for this purpose. I did have some legos and building toys, but I am not sure if that was before age 5 or not. They didn't have the kind with big pieces geared toward younger kids at that time. There were lots of books in the house, but I was not able to read before age 5.

My dad is pretty heavy on the T side, so it could be argued that I picked that up from him, even though my mom played a much larger role in child rearing than him. It would seem more likely that I would pick up Fe from my mom who was a strong Fe and also took me with her on frequent visits with Fe friends and relatives.

It is ironic to think that though my mother clearly wanted a girl of the same personality type as her, some things she did may have contributed to me being almost the opposite personality type as her.

The dominate N is a mystery though. Both my parents seem to be S, but my brother and I are both N. My younger brother could have turned out N because of my influence on him, but I don't know what would have caused me to turn out N.

Ilah

S and N traits would be more difficult to explain than probably any other preference; that's not to sayyout couldn't, but pin-pointing what makes a person N or what makes a person S is difficult to do. It would have a lot to do with whether or not your brain wired itself to be more intune with your senses and the concrete world, or whether you were more prone to noticing patterns and predicting future events...odds are, there are many factors and many layers that would go with that. It'd be harder than any other to say "This happened, so I'm this."
From what I've read, and from what I could deduce through contemplating, I'd predict that this would be one of the first preferences that a baby chooses; I would imagine that these sort of functions would develop in response to very early stimuli. (That is not a professional opinion; that's just a personal conclusion).
 

mlittrell

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darth vader is an XNFP with evil ideals. ESTJ isn't the shadow type of INFJ. now you can put off a facade that you are another type but type isn't what you are acting. if an ESFP actor acts like an ISTJ or an ENTJ or whatever, they are still an ESFP. we are talking about how people really are.

now to gloomy-optimist i have a question (im not trying to trip you up or anything, just curious). What if you put a baby in a white square room with nothing else in it except white walls. Assuming they didn't need food, water, whatever, how would their personality develop? or would it? would the personality be only as deep as what those white walls defined?

thanks
 

Venom

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darth vader is an XNFP with evil ideals. ESTJ isn't the shadow type of INFJ. now you can put off a facade that you are another type but type isn't what you are acting. if an ESFP actor acts like an ISTJ or an ENTJ or whatever, they are still an ESFP. we are talking about how people really are.

now to gloomy-optimist i have a question (im not trying to trip you up or anything, just curious). What if you put a baby in a white square room with nothing else in it except white walls. Assuming they didn't need food, water, whatever, how would their personality develop? or would it? would the personality be only as deep as what those white walls defined?

thanks

ill admit i f***ed up on the ESTJ shadow... to my credit (or fault depending on how you look at it). batman being INFJ with an ESTJ shadow is something i picked up somewhere outside of my own thought (and apparently never bothered to check). I still think that the theory is flexible enough. A kid who grows up INFJ, but suddenly as a 40 year old excells in Ti and Ne does not mean he is an INTP suddenly. It means his oppositional and tertiary are starting to do their job.


and to your second question she would develop poorly. Kids that are deprived of interaction often cant really ever get past telegraphic speech if they arent interacted with at a crucial age.
 

ygolo

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I believe we can learn and grow as a person, but it can be quite painful to try to be something we are not.

Free-will vs. Determinism once again.
 
G

Glycerine

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I highly doubt that your type is nurtured into you. I lived in an orphanage for the first few years of my life up to the age of 5 and a half in a very ISTJ society. I may have some SJ tendencies but my natural inclination is more towards INFJ. However, nurture may mellow out or exaggerate some innate traits.
 

gloomy-optimist

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now to gloomy-optimist i have a question (im not trying to trip you up or anything, just curious). What if you put a baby in a white square room with nothing else in it except white walls. Assuming they didn't need food, water, whatever, how would their personality develop? or would it? would the personality be only as deep as what those white walls defined?

thanks

Well, I've actually thought a lot on this: where does rational thought stem from? Of course it's genetic in people that we are capable of learning and abstract thought; that's what sets us off from animals.
But if a child is placed in a white room with no outside stimulus, then the real question is: what would they think about? What would they learn about? If it weren't for outside forces, how would one make connections to anything except for the sake of fundamental need?
You couldn't think about the future, because every day would be the same. You couldn't do much thinking about your surroundings, either. There would be really no input that has subsistence; absolutely nothing to think about.

If the child was left in that room all its life, then it is possible that they will never actually have a fully formed personality, because there is nothing to respond to; where would a personality be directed to?

If you took the child out of the room, it will probably have some form of retardation; stimulation is needed in that period of time. That is agreed on by pretty much everyone, regardless of stance in nature vs. nurture. I personally would come to the conclusion that this is because they did not make the connections of thought beyond need in those early years; in those years of development, literally all they knew was instinctual need. They don't know how to sort through or handle complicated input; they don't know how to handle social situations. And depending on how old the child is when you take it out of the room, it will become more and more difficult for it to learn, for the same reason it is easier for a young child to learn languages.
 

gloomy-optimist

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I highly doubt that your type is nurtured into you. I lived in an orphanage for the first few years of my life up to the age of 5 and a half in a very ISTJ society. I may have some SJ tendencies but my natural inclination is more towards INFJ. However, nurture may mellow out or exaggerate some innate traits.

That's intriguing! I'm not convinced, although you did spark my curiosity ;) I'd have to know a little more about the circumstances to even begin to work through some scenarios, but I do think they are still probably a good deal nurture; I/E and J/P tend to be easier to spot patterns in than N/S and F/T, so that provides a bit of difficulty in filtering through your case with more extensive knowledge. There's probably factors involve from very early, esp. with your N...
 

mlittrell

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Well, I've actually thought a lot on this: where does rational thought stem from? Of course it's genetic in people that we are capable of learning and abstract thought; that's what sets us off from animals.
But if a child is placed in a white room with no outside stimulus, then the real question is: what would they think about? What would they learn about? If it weren't for outside forces, how would one make connections to anything except for the sake of fundamental need?
You couldn't think about the future, because every day would be the same. You couldn't do much thinking about your surroundings, either. There would be really no input that has subsistence; absolutely nothing to think about.

If the child was left in that room all its life, then it is possible that they will never actually have a fully formed personality, because there is nothing to respond to; where would a personality be directed to?

If you took the child out of the room, it will probably have some form of retardation; stimulation is needed in that period of time. That is agreed on by pretty much everyone, regardless of stance in nature vs. nurture. I personally would come to the conclusion that this is because they did not make the connections of thought beyond need in those early years; in those years of development, literally all they knew was instinctual need. They don't know how to sort through or handle complicated input; they don't know how to handle social situations. And depending on how old the child is when you take it out of the room, it will become more and more difficult for it to learn, for the same reason it is easier for a young child to learn languages.

so in your opinion the mind IS a blank slate? or an empty box/notebook/canvas/whatever?
damn i love this guy
agreed

to add to above question:

so if one grew up in a purely ISTJ environment would they naturally become ISTJ and not deviate from it?

not too related to the rest:

i just found out there was a gene for introversion and extroversion...pretty shnazzy
 
G

Glycerine

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That's intriguing! I'm not convinced, although you did spark my curiosity ;) I'd have to know a little more about the circumstances to even begin to work through some scenarios, but I do think they are still probably a good deal nurturn'e; I/GE and J/P tend to be easier to spot patterns in than N/S and F/T, so that provides a bit of difficulty in filtering through your case with more extensive knowledge. There's probably factors involve from very early, esp. with your N...

Well, it was not the most loving environment and they seemed to get annyed easily. Also, I did not properly bond with anyone until I was 6 because of multiple caretakers. All I really know is that I have always had a very inquisitive mind and overanalyzed things. I don't think they did much to nurture it because they were going to put me in special ed due to my physical disability. (I got put in mainstream and advanced classes since then).

Next, I think I am naturally sensitive so I project my sensitivity on to other people. I value showing respect and being considerate to others. There's my F. The caretakers weren't the nicest people so I don't know how I learned that from them.

Sorry if it's very vague.
 

gloomy-optimist

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so in your opinion the mind IS a blank slate? or an empty box/notebook/canvas/whatever?

agreed

to add to above question:

so if one grew up in a purely ISTJ environment would they naturally become ISTJ and not deviate from it?

not too related to the rest:

i just found out there was a gene for introversion and extroversion...pretty shnazzy

In response to the first part; well, I suppose all things considering, yes. But think about it; if you were in a world where there was nothing to think about, then what would you think about? You couldn't think about the universe; the only universe you know is a single room. You couldn't think about your surroundings or time or anything, because you'd have no concept of it; in a white room where nothing changes, then how would you even know things COULD change? There could be an internal restlessness, but you wouldn't be able to expand it; there would literally be nothing.

Where did you find that information on that gene? I'd like to check that out ;)

IDK123: Your moving around a lot might actually have a lot to do with how your personality developed. Children, even when they are very young, are very in-tune to their environment, more so than I think some people give them credit.
If you were moving around a lot, you might have started to notice the patterns of moving and subtleties that allowed you to predict when it might happen again. That might helped the development of your N. And with your F, it might have happened that they did not, either because of time constraints or inconsistancy, exercise a preference towards "rational" thinking, or, being a young child, you may have developed more F because of a need for affection that you may have wanted but may not have been getting...
 

MissMurder

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Introversion and extroversion can and do change sometimes, depending on the underlying cause of the introversion. The dominant function is hardwired at birth... and perhaps the auxiliary and tertiary can chosen during development, not sure on that one.

That's my personal theory.

I also think that stress can cause mistyping, due to one's typological shadow being visible during this time.
 
G

Glycerine

Guest
In response to the first part; well, I suppose all things considering, yes. But think about it; if you were in a world where there was nothing to think about, then what would you think about? You couldn't think about the universe; the only universe you know is a single room. You couldn't think about your surroundings or time or anything, because you'd have no concept of it; in a white room where nothing changes, then how would you even know things COULD change? There could be an internal restlessness, but you wouldn't be able to expand it; there would literally be nothing.

Where did you find that information on that gene? I'd like to check that out ;)

IDK123: Your moving around a lot might actually have a lot to do with how your personality developed. Children, even when they are very young, are very in-tune to their environment, more so than I think some people give them credit.
If you were moving around a lot, you might have started to notice the patterns of moving and subtleties that allowed you to predict when it might happen again. That might helped the development of your N. And with your F, it might have happened that they did not, either because of time constraints or inconsistancy, exercise a preference towards "rational" thinking, or, being a young child, you may have developed more F because of a need for affection that you may have wanted but may not have been getting...

good points but I think we will have to agree to disagree on the nature vs. nurture. :)
 
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