Flip-floppin' types

[INTJMom]

Some people state emphatically type cannot be changed over time, others say it can.

What say you and why?

I have read that it doesn't. It matures and develops and balances out as we develop our other functions,
but a person does not fundamentally change.
Naomi L. Quenk writes extensively on this in Beside Ourselves.
Of course those statements are made in the context of what's considered "normal".
Obviously drug or brain damage isn't "normal".

 

[ThatsWhatHeSaid]

Some people state emphatically type cannot be changed over time, others say it can.

What say you and why?

I think of type as a trend or tendency to do certain things. Sometimes that tendency is to look for patterns, sometimes not. Sometimes it's to put things into logical order and view things objectively, sometimes not. Sometimes...you get the idea. Of course these things change over time, even minute to minute.

 

[gloomy-optimist]

The way one's brain is patterned to work does not really change. It's not just your personality; it's how you process information and react accordingly to the world around you. That doesn't change, even if your outside personality deviates a bit.

However, I do believe type can change with severe psychological traumas; that's why they talk about your shadow types in periods of extreme stress/sickness. I know when I get depressed or overstressed, I take on the chief characteristics of an INTJ or a ISFJ, but that is only for a brief period.
However, with more serious mental disorders, traumas, and changes, personality changes are known to be abrupt and lasting; I wouldn't doubt that someone could actually change types with a serious mental/emotional upheaval.

 

[mlittrell]

*DISCLAIMER: Generalization*

mbti = nature, enneagram = nurture

ya i think its there from the start, its pretty obvious that MBTI is a genetic thing

 

[gloomy-optimist]

ya i think its there from the start, its pretty obvious that MBTI is a genetic thing

I would be inclined to disagree I think environment has more to do with how you act; it may seem genetic because it's your parents teaching you, and you will pick up from their traits, but I don't think there's any real proof that you "inherit" certain qualities...

 

[Jack Flak]

I would be inclined to disagree I think environment has more to do with how you act; it may seem genetic because it's your parents teaching you, and you will pick up from their traits, but I don't think there's any real proof that you "inherit" certain qualities...

Inherit no. My parents are both decidedly S, for example. I certainly think type is more likely innate than taught, but effectively random, or N is recessive .

 

["?"]

I think it can be a development of what's already there as well as a change in preferences.

I have it in me to be a E or J, I can do it for short periods of time, but unless an extreme event takes place that causes me to favor personality characteristics other than those of the INTP, it probably won't happen.

Agreed. Type doesn't change, people develop use or not use or develop certain aspects of their personality at various times. Flip-flopping because you are using a different function or attitude is natural. Not knowing your type in the first place because one does not take the time and energy to determine it is irreprehensible. You will never determine your true type from just taking a test.

 

[gloomy-optimist]

Inherit no. My parents are both decidedly S, for example. I certainly think type is more likely innate than taught, but effectively random, or N is recessive .

Hm...maybe "taught" isn't the best word to use, but I do think it develops more through the events in the early years of life, when the mind and personality is really being developed, rather than being present directly at birth...
It'd be difficult for me to explain my reasoning without giving a minor essay on the topic :B But I would think that things like body-type are inherited, whereas type is something that develops in response to outside stimuli

 

[mlittrell]

I would be inclined to disagree I think environment has more to do with how you act; it may seem genetic because it's your parents teaching you, and you will pick up from their traits, but I don't think there's any real proof that you "inherit" certain qualities...

i didn't mean from your parents. i just mean your born with your type for certain neuro-cognitive reasons. sorry for the confusion. i doubt it comes directly from your parents but there is definitely a neuro-cognitive (documented) reason for what your type is meaning, you are born with a type and your type is determined by different chemicals in your brain. any other changes can be explained by the nurture concept.

 

[gloomy-optimist]

i didn't mean from your parents. i just mean your born with your type for certain neuro-cognitive reasons. sorry for the confusion. i doubt it comes directly from your parents but there is definitely a neuro-cognitive (documented) reason for what your type is meaning, you are born with a type and your type is determined by different chemicals in your brain. any other changes can be explained by the nurture concept.

I'm still not entirely convinced; people are all essentially "wired" in a similar fashion at birth. I believe that personality and personality type is essentially learned; in the very early years of development, one takes preference to certain qualities, rather than them simply being there.

 

[Kasper]

The brain isn't a static thing. Here are a few studies done that contradict the theory that personality is stagnant..

ScienceDirect - Journal of Adolescence : Stability and change in personality type membership and anxiety in adolescence

Antidepressant Can Change Personality Traits In Healthy People

Study: Your Personality Can Change (and Probably Should) | LiveScience

I see those articles as saying something other than changing type preferences, personality can certainly change but I question whether our MBTI type can. For example, can an introverted person change their makeup to get their energy from external factors or an extraverted person from internal factors for anything other than short periods or without mental issues or drug influences?

I have read that it doesn't. It matures and develops and balances out as we develop our other functions,
but a person does not fundamentally change.

That would be how I've always thought it to be but I've seen plenty of people talk about how they have or will change type and I'm curious to see how they came to that conclusion.

I think of type as a trend or tendency to do certain things. Sometimes that tendency is to look for patterns, sometimes not. Sometimes it's to put things into logical order and view things objectively, sometimes not. Sometimes...you get the idea. Of course these things change over time, even minute to minute.

I'd say everyone has an element of each preference and as mum says "it matures and develops and balances out as we develop our other functions" but do you see these tendencies as changing or just using non-dominant functions?

mbti = nature, enneagram = nurture

Like that one.

I'm still not entirely convinced; people are all essentially "wired" in a similar fashion at birth. I believe that personality and personality type is essentially learned; in the very early years of development, one takes preference to certain qualities, rather than them simply being there.

Can't say I'm entirely convinced either although in the past I have always considered it to be hard wired and looking at my 3 year old nephew I can see preferences there that are seperate to his personality.

 

[ajblaise]

I see those articles as saying something other than changing type preferences, personality can certainly change but I question whether our MBTI type can. For example, can an introverted person change their makeup to get their energy from external factors or an extraverted person from internal factors for anything other than short periods or without mental issues or drug influences?

One of the studies talked about how low sociability was related to low serotonin, so it's conceivable that if a depressed person with low serotonin does something naturally or with drugs that causes his serotonin levels to go up and possibly become more sociable and extroverted, this could definitely show and change someone MBTI results.

Not that I think all introverts are depressed in any way of course, though there is some sort of trend that does exist.

 

[INTJMom]

...
That would be how I've always thought it to be but I've seen plenty of people talk about how they have or will change type and I'm curious to see how they came to that conclusion.
...

I always assume they are novices.

 

[Kasper]

One of the studies talked about how low sociability was related to low serotonin, so it's conceivable that if a depressed person with low serotonin does something naturally or with drugs that causes his serotonin levels to go up and possibly become more sociable and extroverted, this could definitely show and change someone MBTI results.

Not that I think all introverts are depressed in any way of course, though there is some sort of trend that does exist.

Sure I can see how that would have an effect on personality but I can't see how someone could actually change type, considering extravert and introvert are not about how out-going or sociable someone is but rather how they get energy I wouldn’t imagine that would change significantly or is that what you're suggesting?

I always assume they are novices.

Me too actually but I figured it was somewhat dismissive of me to make an assumption without giving it consideration *shrug*

 

[gloomy-optimist]

Can't say I'm entirely convinced either although in the past I have always considered it to be hard wired and looking at my 3 year old nephew I can see preferences there that are seperate to his personality.

That would be about the age that preferences would really begin to set in. The toddler years are crucial to development; the ages between birth and the age 5 are when kids learn most from their parents and begin to learn from society. They take all their cues, and then begin taking preference. It's really amazing how quickly a child learns even in the first 2 years


Also, with continued drug use or a severe trauma, emotional, physical, etc., intense personality changes can and sometimes do take place. In these cases, it is very likely that someone's preference in one or more areas do completely change; that would cause a change in MBTI type.

 

[INTJMom]

...


Me too actually but I figured it was somewhat dismissive of me to make an assumption without giving it consideration *shrug*

I agree. I verify my assessment first, and then pat myself on the shoulder for being right.

 

[mlittrell]

That would be about the age that preferences would really begin to set in. The toddler years are crucial to development; the ages between birth and the age 5 are when kids learn most from their parents and begin to learn from society. They take all their cues, and then begin taking preference. It's really amazing how quickly a child learns even in the first 2 years


Also, with continued drug use or a severe trauma, emotional, physical, etc., intense personality changes can and sometimes do take place. In these cases, it is very likely that someone's preference in one or more areas do completely change; that would cause a change in MBTI type.

so in a way you believe in the "blank slate" theory meaning that a mind is a blank slate that can be filled in by experience? do you believe anything is pre-defined?

i still stand true to the nurture vs nature arguement. i grew up with two INXJ parents and came out an ENFP. I know another ENFP that grew up with two SJ parents. i highly doubt that MBTI is developed purely on the basis of purely nurture. as far as drugs/trama/emotional/physical blah blah blah go, i dont think the type changes but mearly distorts. to me, the types are set in stone but are able to flex and sway in different directions based on environment and upbringing. a stupid analogy would be a building whose foundation is set but is allowed to flex with any earthquakes that it might encounter through its life.

the enneagram seems to be very easily changed by upringing/nurture/environment

EDIT:

the personality is defined by certain chemicals at a neuro-cognitive level

EDIT2:

blank slate argument: if a persons mind is effected by (completely by) environment then the mind must, to some extent be a blank slate. so if you take a baby and put him/her in a white square room with nothing it it and they do not need food/water/watever, then once older, will their mind be void? of course not, there are certain "instincts" or cognitive predispositions that we are born with. this has been proven by a very simple test. you take a new born baby and you show them two pieces of paper. one piece of paper has two equal sized dots above a smaller dot (eyes and a mouth). the other paper has one dot with two dots below it (? lol). the baby will always look towards the first paper. other tests have been done like this but that is just an example. so if they are born with the "instinct" to know what a face is then why cant they be born with a tendency towards a certain type? (people who are blind and deaf have personalties and yet there is almost zero input on their part) it is amazing how much babies learn in the first two years considering they are predisposed to knowing it

 

[gloomy-optimist]

so in a way you believe in the "blank slate" theory meaning that a mind is a blank slate that can be filled in by experience? do you believe anything is pre-defined?

i still stand true to the nurture vs nature arguement. i grew up with two INXJ parents and came out an ENFP. I know another ENFP that grew up with two SJ parents. i highly doubt that MBTI is developed purely on the basis of purely nurture. as far as drugs/trama/emotional/physical blah blah blah go, i dont think the type changes but mearly distorts. to me, the types are set in stone but are able to flex and sway in different directions based on environment and upbringing. a stupid analogy would be a building whose foundation is set but is allowed to flex with any earthquakes that it might encounter through its life.

the enneagram seems to be very easily changed by upringing/nurture/environment

EDIT:

the personality is defined by certain chemicals at a neuro-cognitive level

EDIT2:

blank slate argument: if a persons mind is effected by (completely by) environment then the mind must, to some extent be a blank slate. so if you take a baby and put him/her in a white square room with nothing it it and they do not need food/water/watever, then once older, will their mind be void? of course not, there are certain "instincts" or cognitive predispositions that we are born with. this has been proven by a very simple test. you take a new born baby and you show them two pieces of paper. one piece of paper has two equal sized dots above a smaller dot (eyes and a mouth). the other paper has one dot with two dots below it (? lol). the baby will always look towards the first paper. other tests have been done like this but that is just an example. so if they are born with the "instinct" to know what a face is then why cant they be born with a tendency towards a certain type? (people who are blind and deaf have personalties and yet there is almost zero input on their part) it is amazing how much babies learn in the first two years considering they are predisposed to knowing it

I never once said anything in any regards to the blank slate theory. People are not animals, and therefore are inclined to abstract thought; they are born with this ability. Many physical characteristics and things that are defined by physical characteristics are decided by genetics.
However, a child learns. A child from a different household and a different environment will learn different things, and it will affect their personality, I believe to the extent of deciding certain factors of their personalities.

That is not to say they will have to take from the traits of their parents; they will be influenced by both parents, extended family, outside forces, the media, etc. Example; my sister is extroverted, but both my parents are introverted. They raised us to be independent and outgoing; to exhibit those traits. However, I don't see how that can be determined simply by genetics; with what I have followed, introversion would be a recessive trait.

Also, the director of student life at my school studies the difference between birth order and MBTI typology, as well as average behavior; there is a correlation between certain traits and the order of birth. That would be a learned trait.

So a human is born with the extraordinary ability to learn; however, they learn what they are taught. If you want, I could do further research on the topic; Freud, I believe, has a few things that demonstrate a preference to developmental psychology.


And as for chemical balances: what if that balance changes? If, by your theory, personality is dependent solely on that, then if the a permanent chemical imbalance takes place, then the personality would also change permanently.

 

[mlittrell]

k thats fine. and i never said you believed in the blank slate theory. i was just clearing things up for everyone else

if a chemical imbalance happens it doesn't change the personality. read The Edge Effect by Eric Braverman for more info. also i dont believe that genetics has all that much effect on personality (though it does to a point). im just saying you are born with your mbti type. your type cannot change but it can flex with the environment. if you have two twins that grow up in exactly the same environment, they both still come out different.

ill pass on the Freud info. thanks though.

and true, environment has a massive effect (nature = 60% nurture = 40% (a large percentage)). both my parents are introverted and well what do you know, my Fi is very very developed. but im still an ENFP. so all that to say i agree with most of what you say, but i still think that you are born a type and die that type.

 

[gloomy-optimist]

k thats fine. and i never said you believed in the blank slate theory. i was just clearing things up for everyone else

if a chemical imbalance happens it doesn't change the personality. read The Edge Effect by Eric Braverman for more info. also i dont believe that genetics has all that much effect on personality (though it does to a point). im just saying you are born with your mbti type. your type cannot change but it can flex with the environment. if you have two twins that grow up in exactly the same environment, they both still come out different.

ill pass on the Freud info. thanks though.

and true, environment has a massive effect (nature = 60% nurture = 40% (a large percentage)). both my parents are introverted and well what do you know, my Fi is very very developed. but im still an ENFP. so all that to say i agree with most of what you say, but i still think that you are born a type and die that type.

I respect your opinion
And it is interesting about the twins; technically, that theory would not follow with identical twins (I consider myself to be somewhat of an expert in this area, being a twin myself; I'm fraternal, but I've been very interested in the general workings, so I know quite a few fun facts ). In fact, twins might be one of the best examples of environmental influences; twins do not, in fact, grow up in the exact same environment. They have a very interesting dynamic between them; they are taught to be alike but similar, and they often times fall into separate personality preference so that they can balance attention and roles out between them.
Or, at least, that's what I've noticed from my own experience, as well as similar stories from others.
My sister and I were exposed to the exact same chemical dynamic in the womb, but we have different personalities, and they exhibit that balancing dynamic. We are both intuitive and judging, which is the product of the environment that our parents raised us in as well as how they taught us to be; however, she in extroverted to my introverted, so one of us actually took the "dominant" role when dealing with people, and she is thinking to my feeling. This, I theorize, was a result of our developmental patterns in dealing with people and each other as toddlers.