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  1. #81
    Senior Member gloomy-optimist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IDK123 View Post
    good points but I think we will have to agree to disagree on the nature vs. nurture.
    That's absolutely fine~ Everyone's entitled to their own opinions; there's really no answer in this issue that we can determine yet :B

  2. #82
    Babylon Candle Venom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IDK123 View Post
    good points but I think we will have to agree to disagree on the nature vs. nurture.
    And here's the "down goes Fraser" moment:
    nature determines how one responds to nurture.

    Quote Originally Posted by MissMurder View Post
    I also think that stress can cause mistyping, due to one's typological shadow being visible during this time.
    when I first typed myself, I grossly overemphasized certain qualities due to the amount of stress I was under (and the religion that took advantage of that vulnerability in stress).

  3. #83
    Senior Member MissMurder's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Babylon Candle View Post
    when I first typed myself, I grossly overemphasized certain qualities due to the amount of stress I was under (and the religion that took advantage of that vulnerability in stress).
    Yes, that sounds very similar to my experience as well. I'm glad you found yourself in the end.
    Power is the virtue that makes all other virtues possible.
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  4. #84
    Senior Member mlittrell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gloomy-optimist View Post
    In response to the first part; well, I suppose all things considering, yes. But think about it; if you were in a world where there was nothing to think about, then what would you think about? You couldn't think about the universe; the only universe you know is a single room. You couldn't think about your surroundings or time or anything, because you'd have no concept of it; in a white room where nothing changes, then how would you even know things COULD change? There could be an internal restlessness, but you wouldn't be able to expand it; there would literally be nothing.

    Where did you find that information on that gene? I'd like to check that out

    IDK123: Your moving around a lot might actually have a lot to do with how your personality developed. Children, even when they are very young, are very in-tune to their environment, more so than I think some people give them credit.
    If you were moving around a lot, you might have started to notice the patterns of moving and subtleties that allowed you to predict when it might happen again. That might helped the development of your N. And with your F, it might have happened that they did not, either because of time constraints or inconsistancy, exercise a preference towards "rational" thinking, or, being a young child, you may have developed more F because of a need for affection that you may have wanted but may not have been getting...
    thought and personality are two different things, ya you wouldn't be able to think about anything but would you still have a personality. of course. now it wouldn't be a normal personality...at all...but im sure that the processes in the brain that are described by MBTI would still be there nonetheless.

    and the information about the introversion extroversion is a generally accepted discovery. all that to say, i got it from a reliable source

    and the ISTJ question was directed at gloomy-optimist, though i appreciate your response
    "Honest differences are often a healthy sign of progress. "

    "You must not lose faith in humanity. Humanity is an ocean; if a few drops of the ocean are dirty, the ocean does not become dirty."

    "An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind."

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  5. #85
    Senior Member gloomy-optimist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mlittrell View Post
    thought and personality are two different things, ya you wouldn't be able to think about anything but would you still have a personality. of course. now it wouldn't be a normal personality...at all...but im sure that the processes in the brain that are described by MBTI would still be there nonetheless.

    and the information about the introversion extroversion is a generally accepted discovery. all that to say, i got it from a reliable source

    and the ISTJ question was directed at gloomy-optimist, though i appreciate your response
    But here's the main question; what would the brain process? I mean, think about this: how could you be introverted or extroverted when there is nothing to react to? How could you think about the future, or notice your surroundings, when they are unchanging? What would you think about rationally, and what would you feel emotionally, if there was nothing to provoke any thought (although emotion would probably be present in the form of frustrations, but a full spectrum of emotion would probably not be very visible)? And what is there to organize; when would you be spontaneous? It's not a matter of personality and thought; it's a matter of personality and outside stimulus. There would nothing that would provoke the development of a personality, whether we're talking about nature or about nurture. The functions of a personality would be horribly underdeveloped.
    I'd imagine that anyone that would come out of that situation would find it very difficult to deal with the sudden over-stimulation of the outside world. It doesn't have to do with thought so much as the absence of something to think about.

    As for the gene, I have to remain skeptical...I'm sorry; I'm really not trying to be stubborn ^^;
    But from what I know about genetics, it seems very...unlikely to me that there would be a single gene that would determine that. It would most likely be a series of different genes that work together to make that; if that were the case, then it would also be possible to have different combinations that would make one person "more" extroverted," another "less extroverted," etc, depending on how many "extroverted" genes they would have...
    What would the dominant and recessive genes be? I mean, what would show up where?
    I just don't think genetics are as easy as that :/

  6. #86
    Senior Member mlittrell's Avatar
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    of course there is no single gene for introversion and extroversion but they have been linked to genetics.

    also there would be emotions in a white, square room. now you make a good point...what would they be based off of? now the way i see it, that person will feel emotion and will make logical deductions and such, but the range to which he/she feels/thinks it will be determined by the environment. yes, the environment has an (large) effect, but the environment doesn't create emotional thought processes. or, for you thinkers out there, logical thought processes. all the environment does is give logic and emotion range, BUT, it does not create it. it was always there to begin with.
    "Honest differences are often a healthy sign of progress. "

    "You must not lose faith in humanity. Humanity is an ocean; if a few drops of the ocean are dirty, the ocean does not become dirty."

    "An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind."

    Mahatma Gandhi

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  7. #87
    Senior Member gloomy-optimist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mlittrell View Post
    of course there is no single gene for introversion and extroversion but they have been linked to genetics.

    also there would be emotions in a white, square room. now you make a good point...what would they be based off of? now the way i see it, that person will feel emotion and will make logical deductions and such, but the range to which he/she feels/thinks it will be determined by the environment. yes, the environment has an (large) effect, but the environment doesn't create emotional thought processes. or, for you thinkers out there, logical thought processes. all the environment does is give logic and emotion range, BUT, it does not create it. it was always there to begin with.
    Well, where does emotional/rational thought process originate? I mean, what would you think about? What sort of thoughts could you have in an unchanging, uninteresting, barren, blank environment?

  8. #88
    Senior Member mlittrell's Avatar
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    near to none but the point is that there is still logical processes and emotional processes going on, as small as they might be, they still exist
    "Honest differences are often a healthy sign of progress. "

    "You must not lose faith in humanity. Humanity is an ocean; if a few drops of the ocean are dirty, the ocean does not become dirty."

    "An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind."

    Mahatma Gandhi

    Enneagram: 9w1

  9. #89
    Senior Member gloomy-optimist's Avatar
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    Okay; so I was wondering about this all because there really didn't seem to be too much of an obvious answer on either side; there were kind of strong arguments all around. So I talked to my student life director at school; she did her doctorate on mbti and birth order, so she knows a lot, to say the least. I asked her about the nurture vs. nature argument, and she showed me studies on identical twins that actually show evidence to nature having a founding role.
    Thus, I will be humble and admit there are some rather large holes in my argument

    But, I'm still interested in exploring further; I don't think that's a single answer in itself. As I said, she also studies birth order, and there is a fairly strong correlation between birth order and the way a person reacts to his environment and other people, esp. if the birth order changed before the age of 5. So doesn't that show, at least a little bit, that things like birth order in childhood could effect personality, enough so that there is an area of study devoted to it? And wouldn't that mean that there is a certain amount of nurture factors that do have a connection with establishing types, or at least swaying it a bit?
    I don't know, but I would like to talk to her a bit more about it; it's really intriguing. The more there is, the less clear the verdict seems to be to me :/

    mlittrell: Yep As I said, there would be some basic emotion and all that; however, it would still be very limited. There is only so much to think about or show emotion to if you have no concept of color, shape, language, time, or other life.
    The next debate would be whether this would be enough to actually create a true personality; they would be very socially deficient, and as a child completely without stimulus it's very possible for severe forms of mental disability to set in.

  10. #90
    Senior Member mlittrell's Avatar
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    i have full blown respect for someone who can put up a good debate and i must say you did so beautifully. so props and thank you also, would you mind doing me a very large favor and find out more info on the study about nature vs. nurture? i would highly appreciate that because it is extremely interesting especially coming from someone who did her doctorate on it. thanks

    and as far as the white room argument, i doubt their personality would be developed enough to function and im sure that going into the real world would create a massive sensory overload lol.
    "Honest differences are often a healthy sign of progress. "

    "You must not lose faith in humanity. Humanity is an ocean; if a few drops of the ocean are dirty, the ocean does not become dirty."

    "An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind."

    Mahatma Gandhi

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