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  1. #61
    Senior Member mlittrell's Avatar
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    how old is the material it came from or how old is the baby lol? The material is from the 70s I suppose and the age of the baby isn't specified. I always considered a baby to be from newborn to one...maybe two. I don't have kids though.
    "Honest differences are often a healthy sign of progress. "

    "You must not lose faith in humanity. Humanity is an ocean; if a few drops of the ocean are dirty, the ocean does not become dirty."

    "An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind."

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  2. #62
    Senior Member Kristiana's Avatar
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    I find changes in type to be highly unlikely. Exceptions include traumatic events or brain injuries.
    j'adore les chats

  3. #63
    Senior Member mlittrell's Avatar
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    ^ exactly. and those changes are still just deviations of type, not a complete change necessarily. unless its super traumatic.
    "Honest differences are often a healthy sign of progress. "

    "You must not lose faith in humanity. Humanity is an ocean; if a few drops of the ocean are dirty, the ocean does not become dirty."

    "An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind."

    Mahatma Gandhi

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  4. #64
    Senior Member gloomy-optimist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mlittrell View Post
    how old is the material it came from or how old is the baby lol? The material is from the 70s I suppose and the age of the baby isn't specified. I always considered a baby to be from newborn to one...maybe two. I don't have kids though.
    The age of the kid Some people actually consider kids to be "babies" anywhere between ages 0-3, and I've known some people to call them that until the age of 5; it's not really a defining variable, in any case.
    Either way, the age is a very important factor in comparing nature vs. nurture.

  5. #65
    Babylon Candle Venom's Avatar
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    The theory is flexible enough to incorporate "personality changes"
    When Bruce Wayne goes from INFP kid/adult to getting angry with ESTJ shadow he is still an INFP. When Anakin ENFP gets pissed and turns into ISTJ Darth Vader, he is still at heart an ENFP.


    Here is what I played with as kid:
    I played with Legos so much that its all I ever wanted for christmas.
    I watched the history channel from a young age, back when it was actually the history channel and not the conspiracy-theory-entertainment-channel it is today... (history recounting writing is usaully Te, like philosophy is Ti right?)
    I owned just about every Real Time Strategy game they made....and would play them for hours upon hours.
    I "figured out" computers in an intuitive sense, far before my parents ever became computer literate. I taught myself HTML before all these fancy programs were being used by everyday people.

    Ya I would say personality starts pretty young ...

    edit: the theory I read about batman was refering to socionics INFj

  6. #66
    Senior Member Ilah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gloomy-optimist View Post
    Well, first of all, if anyone pressures you to change types when you've already have one fully established, then it's just not going to work. In developmental psychology, although habits may change while you get older, the basis of your personality is developed in the early stages of life; in other words, you were who you are probably by the age of 5, maybe earlier. If you try to change that later...well, it's probably not going to work. You can strengthen functions, but unless there's some very drastic changes, you probably won't deviate preferences.

    I don't believe type is based on "unconcious rebellion" because it is basically learned at a very young age, before any real pressure of the type you're describing is probably put on.

    As for environment, here's a few questions; were you an only child, or did you play a lot on your own? Did your parents give you a lot of rational exercises (like certain toys), and are your parents, guardians, or caretakers (such as babysitters or whatnot, if your parents work a lot) prone more towards rational thinking, or did they encourage those behaviors when you were very young?
    There's a lot of things to consider when you're talking about developmental psychology; it's not really a case of "this happened, so now I'm like this." There are many factors that contribute.

    I am the oldest child. My brother was not born till I was 5 1/2. If this all happens before age 5, I guess I would count as an only child, for this purpose. I did have some legos and building toys, but I am not sure if that was before age 5 or not. They didn't have the kind with big pieces geared toward younger kids at that time. There were lots of books in the house, but I was not able to read before age 5.

    My dad is pretty heavy on the T side, so it could be argued that I picked that up from him, even though my mom played a much larger role in child rearing than him. It would seem more likely that I would pick up Fe from my mom who was a strong Fe and also took me with her on frequent visits with Fe friends and relatives.

    It is ironic to think that though my mother clearly wanted a girl of the same personality type as her, some things she did may have contributed to me being almost the opposite personality type as her.

    The dominate N is a mystery though. Both my parents seem to be S, but my brother and I are both N. My younger brother could have turned out N because of my influence on him, but I don't know what would have caused me to turn out N.

    Ilah

  7. #67
    Senior Member gloomy-optimist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ilah View Post
    I am the oldest child. My brother was not born till I was 5 1/2. If this all happens before age 5, I guess I would count as an only child, for this purpose. I did have some legos and building toys, but I am not sure if that was before age 5 or not. They didn't have the kind with big pieces geared toward younger kids at that time. There were lots of books in the house, but I was not able to read before age 5.

    My dad is pretty heavy on the T side, so it could be argued that I picked that up from him, even though my mom played a much larger role in child rearing than him. It would seem more likely that I would pick up Fe from my mom who was a strong Fe and also took me with her on frequent visits with Fe friends and relatives.

    It is ironic to think that though my mother clearly wanted a girl of the same personality type as her, some things she did may have contributed to me being almost the opposite personality type as her.

    The dominate N is a mystery though. Both my parents seem to be S, but my brother and I are both N. My younger brother could have turned out N because of my influence on him, but I don't know what would have caused me to turn out N.

    Ilah
    S and N traits would be more difficult to explain than probably any other preference; that's not to sayyout couldn't, but pin-pointing what makes a person N or what makes a person S is difficult to do. It would have a lot to do with whether or not your brain wired itself to be more intune with your senses and the concrete world, or whether you were more prone to noticing patterns and predicting future events...odds are, there are many factors and many layers that would go with that. It'd be harder than any other to say "This happened, so I'm this."
    From what I've read, and from what I could deduce through contemplating, I'd predict that this would be one of the first preferences that a baby chooses; I would imagine that these sort of functions would develop in response to very early stimuli. (That is not a professional opinion; that's just a personal conclusion).

  8. #68
    Senior Member mlittrell's Avatar
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    darth vader is an XNFP with evil ideals. ESTJ isn't the shadow type of INFJ. now you can put off a facade that you are another type but type isn't what you are acting. if an ESFP actor acts like an ISTJ or an ENTJ or whatever, they are still an ESFP. we are talking about how people really are.

    now to gloomy-optimist i have a question (im not trying to trip you up or anything, just curious). What if you put a baby in a white square room with nothing else in it except white walls. Assuming they didn't need food, water, whatever, how would their personality develop? or would it? would the personality be only as deep as what those white walls defined?

    thanks
    "Honest differences are often a healthy sign of progress. "

    "You must not lose faith in humanity. Humanity is an ocean; if a few drops of the ocean are dirty, the ocean does not become dirty."

    "An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind."

    Mahatma Gandhi

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  9. #69
    Babylon Candle Venom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mlittrell View Post
    darth vader is an XNFP with evil ideals. ESTJ isn't the shadow type of INFJ. now you can put off a facade that you are another type but type isn't what you are acting. if an ESFP actor acts like an ISTJ or an ENTJ or whatever, they are still an ESFP. we are talking about how people really are.

    now to gloomy-optimist i have a question (im not trying to trip you up or anything, just curious). What if you put a baby in a white square room with nothing else in it except white walls. Assuming they didn't need food, water, whatever, how would their personality develop? or would it? would the personality be only as deep as what those white walls defined?

    thanks
    ill admit i f***ed up on the ESTJ shadow... to my credit (or fault depending on how you look at it). batman being INFJ with an ESTJ shadow is something i picked up somewhere outside of my own thought (and apparently never bothered to check). I still think that the theory is flexible enough. A kid who grows up INFJ, but suddenly as a 40 year old excells in Ti and Ne does not mean he is an INTP suddenly. It means his oppositional and tertiary are starting to do their job.


    and to your second question she would develop poorly. Kids that are deprived of interaction often cant really ever get past telegraphic speech if they arent interacted with at a crucial age.

  10. #70

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    I believe we can learn and grow as a person, but it can be quite painful to try to be something we are not.

    Free-will vs. Determinism once again.

    Accept the past. Live for the present. Look forward to the future.
    Robot Fusion
    "As our island of knowledge grows, so does the shore of our ignorance." John Wheeler
    "[A] scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy." Richard Feynman
    "[P]etabytes of [] data is not the same thing as understanding emergent mechanisms and structures." Jim Crutchfield

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