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  1. #41
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    It's a shame that this is a MBTI site, if it were socionics, I already had XxX as type
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

  2. #42
    Senior Member mlittrell's Avatar
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    i was talking about twins in an idealistic sense. and yes your "theory" would make sense if you bend your mind enough around it. all that to say, i know three sets of twins. one of those sets are literally the exact same type (ISFP) so really, anything is possible.

    im just stating what is generally accepted by science. this is why we dont really follow what pavlov said anymore.

    so what do you believe we are born with? are we born with personality? if not, can we change our personality now (like can i say, hey i wanna be an ISTP)? if we are born with personality? i just need a little more info on what EXACTLY what you believe before i can agree or disagree.
    "Honest differences are often a healthy sign of progress. "

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  3. #43
    Senior Member gloomy-optimist's Avatar
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    Well, I believe that people are born with an innate ability to learn and adapt to their environment; they are not born with their types already set in stone, but they are born with an ability to naturally assimilate to their surroundings. In other words, people aren't born as a type, but they are born to be a type. They are born to learn.
    I believe this is more feasible because, naturally, it would make more sense for a child to be born with the ability to adjust to their environment. That would also account for any cultural difference between types and frequency.
    Now, that is not to say I think it's easy to change types; what a child learns in the first few years of his/her life is most crucial to development. It would be very difficult to change that, especially because it is the basic foundation of everything the individual would learn of society. However, that is why I believe that under extreme situations where they chemical balance or mental stability of the brain is altered, the personality can change.

    And with the twins; some are raised to be "identical." There really is no exact way to tell how each person became their types, even in the sense of twins. Some sets are raised to be individuals; others are raised in a perfectly balanced environment that would result in more similarities between the two. It would actually be really intriguing to see a study on twins and type; I'd like to see how their type difference compares with the dynamics of their childhood environment.

    But yeah; either way, this is a theory, but it seems to have more substance than just saying that the type is just somehow "there"

  4. #44
    Senior Member Ilah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flak View Post
    Balancing and mistyping occur all the time, which can be mistaken for a change in personality type, but no.
    Can you give an example of balancing being mistaken for a change in personality type?

    I am not sure what balancing means with regard to MBTI. Does it mean, for example, that Ts must learn to use their F to be more balanced and Fs must learn how to use their Ts to be more balanced?

    Ilah

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ilah View Post
    Can you give an example of balancing being mistaken for a change in personality type?

    I am not sure what balancing means with regard to MBTI. Does it mean, for example, that Ts must learn to use their F to be more balanced and Fs must learn how to use their Ts to be more balanced?

    Ilah
    Balancing is, in my words, adjusting to the world. As we get older we get better at doing everything we do, in theory, and some of what we do relates to type, such as interacting with people and following schedules.

    Example? I've balanced quite a bit...I've become more capable at acting E, S, F, and J in the past ten years without too much effort, but when left to my own devices I'm totally INTP.

  6. #46
    Senior Member gloomy-optimist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flak View Post
    Balancing is, in my words, adjusting to the world. As we get older we get better at doing everything we do, in theory, and some of what we do relates to type, such as interacting with people and following schedules.

    Example? I've balanced quite a bit...I've become more capable at acting E, S, F, and J in the past ten years without too much effort, but when left to my own devices I'm totally INTP.
    Yeah, I do that a lot between E and T, and sometimes it's almost even confused me...

  7. #47
    Senior Member mlittrell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gloomy-optimist View Post
    Well, I believe that people are born with an innate ability to learn and adapt to their environment; they are not born with their types already set in stone, but they are born with an ability to naturally assimilate to their surroundings. In other words, people aren't born as a type, but they are born to be a type. They are born to learn.
    I believe this is more feasible because, naturally, it would make more sense for a child to be born with the ability to adjust to their environment. That would also account for any cultural difference between types and frequency.
    Now, that is not to say I think it's easy to change types; what a child learns in the first few years of his/her life is most crucial to development. It would be very difficult to change that, especially because it is the basic foundation of everything the individual would learn of society. However, that is why I believe that under extreme situations where they chemical balance or mental stability of the brain is altered, the personality can change.

    And with the twins; some are raised to be "identical." There really is no exact way to tell how each person became their types, even in the sense of twins. Some sets are raised to be individuals; others are raised in a perfectly balanced environment that would result in more similarities between the two. It would actually be really intriguing to see a study on twins and type; I'd like to see how their type difference compares with the dynamics of their childhood environment.

    But yeah; either way, this is a theory, but it seems to have more substance than just saying that the type is just somehow "there"
    so are you saying that basically if i have a kid tomorrow, with the right upbringing and environment i can make him/her into sayyyyy an ISTJ or hey i want an ENTP, with the right environment and such?
    "Honest differences are often a healthy sign of progress. "

    "You must not lose faith in humanity. Humanity is an ocean; if a few drops of the ocean are dirty, the ocean does not become dirty."

    "An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind."

    Mahatma Gandhi

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  8. #48
    Senior Member gloomy-optimist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mlittrell View Post
    so are you saying that basically if i have a kid tomorrow, with the right upbringing and environment i can make him/her into sayyyyy an ISTJ or hey i want an ENTP, with the right environment and such?
    Well, technically, yes. I mean, you might have to alter your own behavior and that of the people around you, and you might have to be selective on what you teach and what you don't teach and what your child is exposed to...
    But yes, in my opinion, it's definitely a possibility, although I think that would take the fun out of things

  9. #49
    Senior Member mlittrell's Avatar
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    lol ok im going to hold my tongue till later...

    just need you to answer a few more questions so i can completely understand your side of things.

    well ive been looking into this a little more and i noticed that you mentioned freud. i was just wondering if you believe most of what freud believes? basically, do you believe that personality is derived from environment and such because of freud or pavlov or just personal experience?

    some more input would be good from others...
    "Honest differences are often a healthy sign of progress. "

    "You must not lose faith in humanity. Humanity is an ocean; if a few drops of the ocean are dirty, the ocean does not become dirty."

    "An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind."

    Mahatma Gandhi

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  10. #50
    Junior Member Wrath Mania's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gloomy-optimist View Post
    I
    Also, the director of student life at my school studies the difference between birth order and MBTI typology, as well as average behavior; there is a correlation between certain traits and the order of birth. That would be a learned trait.
    I've been interested in that pattern for a while, since I've noticed it. What school do you go to? Has he published any of his stuff? I'm very interested.

    As for this discussion...

    There is no doubt temperament is a biological thing. While I'm sure extreme examples and people with illnesses can be exceptions, the evidence that personality generally stays the same in a person throughout their life is overwhelming. And more and more evidence links personality type with biochemistry.

    But there's obviously a difference between biological factors and genetics in particular. Do I believe personality is, to some extent, genetic? Yes, I absolutely do. Do I think there's genes that literally code for, say, being an ENTP or an INFJ? No, of course not. Genetics itself is never that simple, and the biggest problem with that field has always been its reduction of phenotypes to single genes, when a systematic approach shows that can't be possible.

    Such is the case with personality type. Your statement that a person is "born to be a certain type" intrigues me a lot; I think it's a fair proposition and explains what is likely the case. Though I am not at all open to the idea that you can mold a child in any way you want: temperament and type inherently destroy any attempt at a pygmalion project. If true personality, not outward appearance but true type, was so easily influenced by the environment, then there would hardly be any family conflicts to begin with.

    I am certain that the foundation is set in each person at birth, but as you basically said, the intrastrengths of that person's type and how it is manifested outwardly will vary greatly on the environment. Obviously someone with a mental illnesses will see their brain chemistry falter, as will their type (e.g. someone who's bipolar or a schizophrenic). However, an NF raised in a family of Ss will vary greatly from an NF raised under N parents, but that doesn't mean the pattern of their brain chemistry won't be similar.

    The brain is a self-organizing system with hundreds of millions of variables, different in everyone. It's also a two way street, and what happens in nurture will affect the nature (and vice versa). But on a conceptual scale, if we don't take personality types so concretely, they stay the same throughout life.

    That said, the mere fact something like birth order is a recurring pattern with personality proves the biological issues are far more complex than mere genetics. But in the end, nurture is really just another section of nature.
    "The very existence of flame-throwers proves that some time, somewhere, someone said to themselves, You know, I want to set those people over there on fire, but I'm just not close enough to get the job done."--George Carlin

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