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  1. #21
    Senior Member mlittrell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dissonance View Post
    Intuition (unconscious) -- stuff like pattern recognition, making connections between things, inductive/inferential leaps, metaphor in general (I've actually defined it as metaphor before)

    Thinking (conscious) -- deduction, ends with "true" or "false" -- takes information and checks for consistency (internal for Ti, external for Te)
    where does it say that thinking is conscious and intuition is unconscious? just wondering. im pretty sure i use my intuition consciously (especially considering my first function is Ne).
    "Honest differences are often a healthy sign of progress. "

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  2. #22
    IRL is not real Cimarron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mlittrell View Post
    where does it say that thinking is conscious and intuition is unconscious? just wondering. im pretty sure i use my intuition consciously (especially considering my first function is Ne).
    Well, he mentions metaphors. You can build metaphors, sometimes quickly and sometimes only slowly, and I agree that I do it mostly with conscious mind, I think. But he seems to mean "less conscious" than T.
    Last edited by Cimarron; 10-08-2008 at 07:31 AM. Reason: better grammar
    You can't spell "justice" without ISTJ.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bella View Post
    My humble definition: A group of people working together towards a goal, with each person having his own assignment.
    A group of individuals? And if not, how would you describe a team/group? Can you give an example of what kind of assignment would each person have? How are groups formed?

  4. #24
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mlittrell View Post
    J -> making your decisions in "pen" meaning you typically dont change your decisions
    P -> making your decisions in "pencil" meaning you typically make a decision but can go back and change it if need be

    thats a quick and very dirty explaination
    Very quick and dirty.
    One of the most misunderstood aspects of J is that people think they don't change their decisions.
    That is not the case at all, really.

    It simply comes down to this: Do you need a decision up front (so you know what to do next) and then keep processing, while not really letting on you're processing? Or do you refuse to commit to anything while you ponder the situation?

    I used to think J's made decisions quickly and then stick to them.
    They do make them quickly.
    But you can keep pushing on them, giving them new information, observe them seemingly deny all the new information...
    ... and then one day, poof, they just change their stance "out of the blue."
    And pretend that they're sure about that one too.

    Underlying principles:
    1. J's want to take action -- it's more important to do something rather than nothing. Hence, they get closure so they can act and maintain some control.

    2. P's want to be right -- it's more important to hold off on a decision that is uncertain and do nothing, rather than do something and have it be wrong. They don't want closure so they can remain flexible for the "best solution" and/or not be mired down.

    Put another way, J's like to be more proactive, even the introverts (who just do it on a low-key scale). They gun for closure and make decisions and take action and shut off the information flow when necessary. P's like to be reactive and tailor their actions to the information flow coming in; whatever leaves them the most flexibility to respond is preferred.

    Sorry, that was dirty but not quick.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  5. #25
    Senior Member Bella's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by burkeus View Post
    A group of individuals? And if not, how would you describe a team/group? Can you give an example of what kind of assignment would each person have? How are groups formed?
    Yes, a group of individuals.
    The rest depends on what kind of team it is. When I think of a team I think of work (how predictable)
    A goal and each person's contribution in achieving the goal.
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  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bella View Post
    Yeah, I don't get Intuition either, as in I don't get what it feels like to be one, and I don't get the snobbery.
    We see things through different eyes, so to speak. I don't advocate snobbery as a rule, but if one sees something others are blind to, such snobbery can follow, and it works both ways.

  7. #27
    Senior Member Bella's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flak View Post
    We see things through different eyes, so to speak. I don't advocate snobbery as a rule, but if one sees something others are blind to, such snobbery can follow, and it works both ways.
    'k
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  8. #28
    Senior Member mlittrell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Very quick and dirty.
    One of the most misunderstood aspects of J is that people think they don't change their decisions.
    That is not the case at all, really.

    It simply comes down to this: Do you need a decision up front (so you know what to do next) and then keep processing, while not really letting on you're processing? Or do you refuse to commit to anything while you ponder the situation?

    I used to think J's made decisions quickly and then stick to them.
    They do make them quickly.
    But you can keep pushing on them, giving them new information, observe them seemingly deny all the new information...
    ... and then one day, poof, they just change their stance "out of the blue."
    And pretend that they're sure about that one too.

    Underlying principles:
    1. J's want to take action -- it's more important to do something rather than nothing. Hence, they get closure so they can act and maintain some control.

    2. P's want to be right -- it's more important to hold off on a decision that is uncertain and do nothing, rather than do something and have it be wrong. They don't want closure so they can remain flexible for the "best solution" and/or not be mired down.

    Put another way, J's like to be more proactive, even the introverts (who just do it on a low-key scale). They gun for closure and make decisions and take action and shut off the information flow when necessary. P's like to be reactive and tailor their actions to the information flow coming in; whatever leaves them the most flexibility to respond is preferred.

    Sorry, that was dirty but not quick.
    i like most of this so props. i think with Js they can take just as long as Ps to make a decision but they are constantly searching for closure whereas Ps would rather not have closure at all. once you get farther into MBTI you don't even look at J and P in the traditional sense. you tend to look at it in relation to the functions and how it orients them and how the orientation effects decision making and information gathering. fun stuff
    "Honest differences are often a healthy sign of progress. "

    "You must not lose faith in humanity. Humanity is an ocean; if a few drops of the ocean are dirty, the ocean does not become dirty."

    "An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind."

    Mahatma Gandhi

    Enneagram: 9w1

  9. #29
    IRL is not real Cimarron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mlittrell
    I think with Js they can take just as long as Ps to make a decision but they are constantly searching for closure whereas Ps would rather not have closure at all.
    Yes, please keep this in mind. People hate the fact that I take forever to make decisions, especially about the small things in life, but I feel compelled to reach that decision, because I do feel that desire for closure. I don't think it's true that J's always decide things quickly. Closed-ended vs. open-ended seems like a better dichotomy.



    Okay, so I've seen here and on several other threads people mention that "metaphor and analogy" are the embodiment of the N function. Does everyone really think it can be interpreted so simply like that?
    Last edited by Cimarron; 10-09-2008 at 02:29 AM. Reason: on topic OP
    You can't spell "justice" without ISTJ.

  10. #30
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cimarron View Post
    What is the difference between Intuition and Thinking? How can you distinguish when something is intuition, and not just thinking? I just realized this is a main road block in my understanding of the "functions"; even though it's been sitting in the back of my mind for a while, it only put itself clearly together in my head as a question a moment ago.

    Edit: Hold on, it just occurred to me that this topic might have already been discussed. I guess I'll search while you guys think about it.
    I'll try a few ideas at expressing it...

    1. Intuition simply perceives patterns raw, Thinking defines and evaluates the patterns nature, and can compare/apply a pattern to something in particular, such as a situation or goal.

    2. Intuition makes connections, Thinking evaluates and understands the connection.

    3. Intuition notices ways things could be linked, Thinking tries to evaluate to the best of its ability whether any those connections are logically likely, or if one contradicts another, etc.

    Do any of those make sense?

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