Fi vs e4 vs Basic Individuality

[Merced]

Last year, I made a thread asking for how you would separate Fe, so, e2, and a general sense of friendliness outside of typology from one another.

This year, I ask you to differentiate Fi, e4, and a basic sense of individuality. No instinctual variant this time.

 

[Population: 1]

Hmmm. Fi is a personal set of values. e4’s seem hell bent on individuality which stretches beyond inner values to self expression through clothes, art, speech perhaps. Both value authenticity but Fi doesn’t necessarily seem concerned with broadcasting that it’s unique and doesn’t seem to wrestle with itself over legitimacy.

I don’t know I hope that’s useful, I’m relatively new to all this.

 

[Peter Deadpan]

I don't know if I will be of any help because I somewhat openly struggle with differentiating between these myself. I can confidently assert the use of Se-Ni and Ti in myself, yet time after time, I test Fi-dom and generally feel like I use both Fi and Fe, but that I sort of suck at Fe compared to other NFJs because they seem to care more.

I'm too tired to contribute to this in a meaningful/valuable way at the moment, but I will say that it is very common for INFJs to struggle with feeling like they might be Fi doms, and the reason for that is usually pretty straightforward: Too much introverting.

INFJs who spend too much time in isolation going over their theories run the obvious risk of skipping over Fe in their stack, but inevitably they will have to use feeling (oversimplified but hopefully you get the point) to sift through their thoughts because they are creatures of feeling, so to speak. If they don't reach out, what happens is that they sort of sink into their Id function of Fi (I have a poor understanding of Socionics, but that's the place to go to look at Fi in Fe users). Anyway, without rambling on too much, INFJs have Fi but it's healthier for them to use Fe.

I see INFJ 4s (compared to other e-types) having the highest risk of relying on Fi too much, and I think that in general, it makes them feel like shit and only amplifies their feelings of defectiveness.

So, I guess the title of my meandering post should be something like "pseudo-Fi in 4 Fe users."

 

[Hiraeth]

Fi is about having a self-established value system that is based on the individual rather than people as a whole. Fi values authenticity and staying true to one's own principles.

E4 also expresses an individualized perspective that is centered on authenticity and being true to one's self, but there's additionally a motive that involves reaching a certain ideal image. 4s are image based and are concerned with finding their own identity. They generally want to be seen as unique and different than other people. There's also a sense of inferiority and shame about not being able to reach this ideal. Essentially, it's an add-on to the value system.

Both express an individual outlook, but e4 has a motive involved that goes beyond cognitive functions. However, the function Fi due to its inner structure goes hand-in-hand with e4's motives. Thus, it's a large reason why many Fi-doms tend to be 4s.

 

[Yama]

im #triggered that you tagged me in this

 

[á´…eparted]

I am incredibly individualistic at the end of the day. I know what makes me unique and I play it up because it's who I am, and it's fun. I moderate it of course but I have never been shy about who I am or what I am about. Further, I am very solid with it, and I have a very solid set of values and morals all set up around it. It's very difficult for anyone to push me off it.

Despite that, I am neither Fi nor 4.

 

[Lady Lazarus]

The fact that 4 pivots around shame is why they are part of the reactive triad. They are reacting to their own shame via individuality.

Fi is more classically isolated as an element in that it's not a reaction to anything.

And basic individuality as seen in those who have neither 4 or Fi will in all likelihood be way more casual than 4's and less staunch to itself than Fi. Less of a defining thing or commitment.

 

[Red Memories]

I IZ HONORED TO BE TAGGED.

Alright so E4 and Fi may look similar, and often fit together for types using Fi, but they are different.

First let's look at E4.
Heart types in enneagram have a very core problem with feeling "worthless" in some way, and each of them handle this sort of shame differently. 3s tend to try to be more successful admirable people to combat it. 2s make themselves helpful or even outright "seductive" to gain worth from love.
4s find worth in their individuality.
Some 4s will try very hard to be different, not molding into the crowd. Underneath, 4s are actually envious of those who get more than they do or fit in with the crowd, or feel "defective" because they are different. Rather than confront this, they deal with it by (depending upons wings and instincts) will become self-loathing, withdraw, overly-competitive, aggressive, nitpicky of imperfections.
4s can find beauty within suffering, and some 4s in a sense have a masochistic relationship with suffering and enduring. They feel taking on their sufferings and embracing them is what makes them "special" and "worth something."

Now lets look at Feeling functions.
It must be generally divided again how easily Fe and Fi are mistaken based on how someone chooses to express their emotions. Fi is not more or less emotional than Fe. Fi can talk about their feelings, like an Fe. Fe can hide their emotions, like an Fi can. Emotions is NOT THE CORE OF FEELING FUNCTIONS.
Feeling functions are based upon your ethics, how you got them, how you adjust/keep them, and how you handle the world around you as to your ethics.
Fe and Fi both have personal ethic systems. Stereotypical views of Fe makes them sound as if they are groupthinkers, which I suppose an unhealthy or immature Fe could subscribe to this, but we should not define types by unhealthy or immature types.

Introverted functions vs. Extraverted functions:
I feel this is also important to state. You could be an outgoing Fi as much so as an Fe. Your social style does not necessarily play into how you use functions.
An introverted function is one where you need to spend more time processing things. It is also an internalized function. It does not need an external consensus and may not even seek an external consensus. It tends to go by its own terms and discoveries.
An extraverted function is one where you process things through the whole. It is an externalized function, and ones you often show to the world. Often these functions may desire validation of their ideas from those close to them, or from studies, or something as that. It has its own terms and discoveries, but may also adjust them according to consensuses they seek.

So, this was important to discuss because now we're getting into what makes Fi, Fi. And what makes it different from E4.

Fi is internalized ethics, in that sense. Fi values keeping to their values. Fi develops its consensus through its own process. They may need more time to examine an issue before having an ethical opinion on it, because they must decide if it fits their internal code of ethics. They are more likely than Fe to associate with many different others, because they're not as focused on the "external peace" but on "inner peace." Fi can be as empathetic as an Fe. Fi can have as strongly spoken values as Fe. The difference is how the ethics are developed.

So they sound a little similar, in the form that both E4 and Fi are focusing on an "inner peace" they're desiring. However, Fi does not necessarily makes you envious of those who appear in a superior position, or make you feel defective. Fi does not mean you're a little special thing. Fi just means you gather your ethical system through an internalized system, rather than an external one.
E4 is about dealing with a feeling of being worthless or defective. E4 does this by desiring to be different or special. An E4 may have an Fe or Fi value system, but push for something different in the name of being "different" so they can feel "special." On stackings, some 4s may even appear more like 8s, or 1s.

Hope this helps some. I feel like I said a lot and not sure I got the whole point in... XD

 

[Amargith]

From what Ive seen in difference between ENFPs that are e7 and 6 instead of e4 like me, there is definitely a penchant for emotional intensity and a dramatic quality (though that can be my sx-so as well :thinking) that they have less of a tendency towards and often less patience for. There's also a shared need to figure out values and riddle out people/the self, but I find I...well, for lack of a better word, go beyond that and overthink things, from their perspective, perhaps.

There's also the morbid desire to stare into the Abyss of Darkness that most ENFPs shy away from as they prefer to focus more on the positive side of things, typically, though they surely do have their share of Abyss encounters while developing Fi. They're just not as insanely fascinated by it

I also find that 7 ENFPs have all the qualities of an ENFP with insane zaniness and curiosity for Ne and still very much the need to sort through that info with value building blocks via Fi, but they seem to ' figureskate on the water at the speed of light', returning to the same place to scout it but never really going deep-sea diving. 6s seem to be a lot more occupied with safety and checking out the water for hidden nooks and crannies that could house unpleasantness and setting up a perimeter they can trust, and return to as a nest - something i tend to forget about til meeting the kraken in the face while deep-sea diving and wishing I had a safe place set up like that. I'm mostly in it for the pirate ships holding baubles, gems and treasure on the bottom the sea.

 

[OrangeAppled]

Being an individual is not something I strive for or try to prove. I think that’s a big misconception about fours.
What’s going on with fours is they feel defective. Others have some “je ne sais quois” that makes life work out for them, but as a four you feel you are missing something. So the reaction to this shame over their weirdness or void is to embrace their idividuality. Because the individual aspect of yourself is identitied with more than what is common about you, there’s no striving to be individual. Rather, it will feel like you can’t fit in even if you try.

As for introverted feeling, introverted feeling is not a static set of personal values. Most people have values which are personal. If there’s anything you like or which you feel suits you as an individual, well there is something you personally value.

Introverted Feeling is a rational process focused on determining the value (or significance) of things in the human experience. Far more than application of judgement, it is focused on refining that process, so as to get a deeper understanding of what people need or what hurts them, etc, and WHY.
The self is a kind of prototype. What does my emotional response tell me about what this experience means? People take that and run with it to mean they’re self absorbed or all about their own individuality. IMO, that’s a projection of their own infantile, poorly developed Fi.

Mature Fi is aided by Pe to note how their experience mirrors other people’s experience. From there they develop basic concepts of what’s fundamentally similar in the human condition. All people will value, say, peace - but how that’s experienced for each individual can vary dramatically so that they can almost seem opposite in how they meet that need. Introverted Feeling resists external influence so as to funnel things down to what they mean regardless of stuff like time, culture or trends. That’s where that stubbornness to be unaffected by others comes from. Maintaining that purity is not about individuality....its really about seeking a more universal truth.

As for individuality in other types... I don’t see fours or Fi types have a corner on that market. I even see types not associated with individuality as much being even more vocal advocates of it, and perhaps it’s because it’s a lesson they had to learn. For them, that’s growth. For a Fi-dom and especially one who’s a four, that’s not the lesson needed. That’s the obvious thing and the default mode, not even so much in action (as many people are individualistic in action), but the realization of their own individuality.

 

[Agent Washington]

...Hmmm when functioning properly, Tert Fi is more like, there's already this sense of self-contained-ness. No need to strive towards other things, other individuals, etc., or care about things that are irrelevant to our goals. Te should override the unimportant people/things provided by the inferior function, and Fi should provide the feeling of self-sufficiency and we (istj and intj) know our value from Si or Ni, and we execute it with Te.

In ENFPs, aux Fi is the direction that gets provided once Ne and Te work together to evaluate the possibilities of what can be done.

IXFPs seem to be constantly evaluating what's important to them.

Placement matters, I guess.

Fours usually aren't that specific.

 

[magpie]

Fi: mode of thought organization and perception

e4: neurosis

Basic individuality: inherent in all people by nature of being human

 

[citizen cane]

From my understanding of typology, enneagram 4 seems to focus more on cultivating uniqueness, whereas Fi tends to be more concerned with being true to one's own personal values. Sometimes the latter's focus on being genuine and true to ones self leads to uniqueness, but I don't think Fi is inherently concerned with being unique like e4.

 

[thoughtlost]

I guess I could add to the discussion since I am not a core E4, but am Fi.

As everyone is already saying, Fi isn't about thinking that you are unique and different from others or having personal convictions and sticking to them. Fi doms have a very self-focused way of relating to others, but it doesn't mean that they are self-absorbed. They are just monitoring their own internal reactions and they set out to understand what those reactions mean for them or how to respond to it.

E4s, if Fi, can do this, but the mentality of E4 is essentially this: There is something wrong with them that makes them not valuable/unloveable, and then they play it up as a defense mechanism against it. They hold onto a self-imposed ideal(s) of who they see themselves as.

 

[Norrsken]

This year, I ask you to differentiate Fi, e4, and a basic sense of individuality. No instinctual variant this time.

[SWEATING NERVOUSLY INTENSIFIES]

I will, once I get my enneagram studying done, which is not too far from now. I'll come back to this thread at a later date.